Guitar amp Vs PA?

[tigerflystudio]

Suppossed it depends on the quality of your PA system, huh?

And unless you do your live own sound FOH (like we do), then you're 'tone' is in the hands of a complete stranger, and most of your effort to get 'that' sound, will be cruelly sh*t on by them

 

[Greg_L]

ha ha ha... awesome. Love this repsonse.
Shouldn't it be all about the music rather than about the size of the guitarist's 'ego-rig'?

It should be about the music, but it isn't. A live performance isn't all about sound. It's a complete audio/visual onslaught. And it aint about ego-rigs. It's about using the right amp for the job, again, both aurally and visually. No one wants to see or hear Slayer while they sit on stools and play through PODs.

 

[Richard Monroe]

I can't tell you much about how it works with a band- I'm basically a solo act, probably 80% acoustic and 20% electric. I run the acoustic with a Fishman stereo blender straight into the PA, and the electric through a Behringer VAMP 2 or even a pocket POD into the PA. It has the advantage that I can have all the presets for various songs at the touch of a footswitch. Obviously, the setup for "Pinball Wizard" is a whole different ballgame from "Johnny B. Goode". The main thing is that to make this whole thing work, you really have to play around with the POD or whatever modeler you are using until you get the sounds that you need for the material you are doing. The settings for every song I do on electric is preprogrammed, and the settings aren't the same for different guitars. If I'm using a Les Paul, that's one thing. A Telecaster is a whole different ballgame. The other advantage is that because the digital volume is preset, once I get the vocal and guitar balanced properly, I can switch through the presets from one song to another without messing with volume pedals or tone settings on the guitar. All I have to do is when I build a preset, I need to know what pickups I'm using, and have standard volume and tone settings on the guitar. That way the transition between songs with very different tonal requirements is instantaneous and seamless, and the guitar and vocals are always balanced. Being a solo act, I use a pretty small PA-a Fender PD250. When I do play with a band, the Fender goes from being a wussy little PA to a 250 watt acoustic guitar amp. It's just a matter of perspective.-Richie

 

[moresound]

It should be about the music, but it isn't. A live performance isn't all about sound. It's a complete audio/visual onslaught. And it aint about ego-rigs. It's about using the right amp for the job, again, both aurally and visually.

It sure the h*ll is !!!!

 

[mixsit]

It... No one wants to see or hear Slayer while they sit on stools and play through PODs.

Man that is some great imagery you got going there.

Hey, I can see it, if it works for whatever practical reasons, particularly where the scale gets larger/better, hell the whole stage can be props and sets'.
And as someone alluded to above there's sound guys then there's sound guys.
Personally I want to interact with my amp. I think it would be a little tough to do what I do with a floor wedge. 'Clean-to saturated rock tones through a one inch horn driver no thank you.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

It should be about the music, but it isn't. A live performance isn't all about sound. It's a complete audio/visual onslaught. And it aint about ego-rigs. It's about using the right amp for the job, again, both aurally and visually. No one wants to see or hear Slayer while they sit on stools and play through PODs.

Not a hell of a lot to add that hasn't already been said, but I'm bored and on my lunch break, so...

Greg's right, the appearance does matter when you're playing rock music. You know how you go see, ohh, Kiss or someone, and they have a wall of Marshalls behind them? Most of those are just for show, they'll be plugged into one but they bring a ton of dummy 4x12s (most not even loaded with speakerS). Why? Because it's part of the show. So yeah, there are visual reasons to gig with a real amp over and above the viability of a direct signal for guitar tone.

That said, even if you don't care about visuals, you have two remaining problems, one a matter of taste/not a huge deal and the other a VERY big deal.

First, my experience with modelers is that while they're adequate, they're not THAT good. The feel is off, the sound is usually a bit grainy in the presence and a little smeared in the midrange (line6, anyhow), and while they certainly sound like a guitar, it's rare that you hear a modeled tone that absolutely blows you away. As an added risk, most models are usually over-gained relative to the real thing, and with all of those on-board FX, the danger is that you'll be tempted to dial up a live sound with too much gain and a ton of chorus, delay, flanger, reverb, or whatever, both of which can make it awfully hard for a guitar to "cut" live (in fact, I think my biggest problem with modeling is considering all the programable options, it makes user error VERY tempting, and people tend to dial up tones they'd never bother to go after with an amp).

Second, the bigger problem is you're SO much at the mercy of the sound system. I don't know what kind of places you usually play, but I've played my share of gigs in places where the house PA was only up to the task of reproducing vocals and maybe a bot of acoustic guitar. If you roll into a club expecting to go direct and either the PA is underpowered, or they simply don't have enough channels for you, you're going to have problems. Second, going direct means you have to rely on monitors for your guitar sound, if you want to hear yourself play.Not only can you not take it for granted that every club will HAVE monitors, much less decent ones, the other thing you have to worry about is getting enough signal of you that you're comfortable playing, without having the guitar so hot that your singer feels like you're overpowering him.

I just think that while your rig is going to be heavier if you keep bringing an amp, it's more flexible, more practical, and safer, even aside from the fact it looks cool.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Not a hell of a lot to add that hasn't already been said, but I'm bored and on my lunch break, so...

Greg's right, the appearance does matter when you're playing rock music. You know how you go see, ohh, Kiss or someone, and they have a wall of Marshalls behind them? Most of those are just for show, they'll be plugged into one but they bring a ton of dummy 4x12s (most not even loaded with speakerS). Why? Because it's part of the show. So yeah, there are visual reasons to gig with a real amp over and above the viability of a direct signal for guitar tone.

That said, even if you don't care about visuals, you have two remaining problems, one a matter of taste/not a huge deal and the other a VERY big deal.

First, my experience with modelers is that while they're adequate, they're not THAT good. The feel is off, the sound is usually a bit grainy in the presence and a little smeared in the midrange (line6, anyhow), and while they certainly sound like a guitar, it's rare that you hear a modeled tone that absolutely blows you away. As an added risk, most models are usually over-gained relative to the real thing, and with all of those on-board FX, the danger is that you'll be tempted to dial up a live sound with too much gain and a ton of chorus, delay, flanger, reverb, or whatever, both of which can make it awfully hard for a guitar to "cut" live (in fact, I think my biggest problem with modeling is considering all the programable options, it makes user error VERY tempting, and people tend to dial up tones they'd never bother to go after with an amp).

Second, the bigger problem is you're SO much at the mercy of the sound system. I don't know what kind of places you usually play, but I've played my share of gigs in places where the house PA was only up to the task of reproducing vocals and maybe a bot of acoustic guitar. If you roll into a club expecting to go direct and either the PA is underpowered, or they simply don't have enough channels for you, you're going to have problems. Second, going direct means you have to rely on monitors for your guitar sound, if you want to hear yourself play.Not only can you not take it for granted that every club will HAVE monitors, much less decent ones, the other thing you have to worry about is getting enough signal of you that you're comfortable playing, without having the guitar so hot that your singer feels like you're overpowering him.

I just think that while your rig is going to be heavier if you keep bringing an amp, it's more flexible, more practical, and safer, even aside from the fact it looks cool.

what he said. ^^^^^^^^


I'd give ya' some rep but my rep seems broken and I haven't been able to give any rep for a couple of months. Might be a bad tube.

 

[Zaphod B]

what he said. ^^^^^^^^


I'd give ya' some rep but my rep seems broken and I haven't been able to give any rep for a couple of months. Might be a bad tube.

I got him for ya.

Good post, Drew, and Gerg, and Lt.Bob, and anyone who has said "bring your amp" !

I have a POD XTL and having spent a good bit of time with it, I would only use it live as a backup, never as a primary. It's just not quite there.

 

[Richard Monroe]

I agree with what Lt. Bob said. That whole business about being sucked in by too much gain and FX, that's just what I meant about taking the time to find the sounds you need. I have almost no use for factory presets. Mostly, I need it *a lot* cleaner.
I also agree that if you go direct, the last thing you want to do is depend on the house PA. Even as a little solo act, even if I know the house PA is OK, I'll have mine with me. So- you give up hauling an amp, but you haul a PA. I would anyway. Never depend on the house's sound system.-Richie

 

[darrin_h2000]

Yeah bass is different. I don't think our bassist is ever mic'd, but he still uses his amp onstage. The bass id DI'd through the mains but the stage sound is still there. I don't need him in my drum monitor.

Somebody with rhythm should be timekeeping...how would you play drums without him

Thats how Rush does it (I mean that trio from Canada in case you confused them with that round fellow that runs the KKK)...with bass direct in through a sansbass...I saw Night Ranger this summer and they went direct in too.

 

[darrin_h2000]

First, my experience with modelers is that while they're adequate, they're not THAT good. The feel is off, the sound is usually a bit grainy in the presence and a little smeared in the midrange (line6, anyhow), and while they certainly sound like a guitar, it's rare that you hear a modeled tone that absolutely blows you away.

I felt that way about the old modelers...but its been ten years...its time for you to listen to what is on the market now.

Besides...dummy cabinets are for posers...I love the shows where the lead singer gets on top of them...the last Jackyl show I saw had 12 dummy marshall cabs...and Jessie was right up there with that chainsaw.

 

[Zaphod B]

If your audience is expecting a wall of 4 x 12s you gotta bring 'em, I guess.

 

[darrin_h2000]

I still haul around 1970s Peavey SP1 folding horn enclosures...but Ive put casters on them...why...shock and awe...lol.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

I felt that way about the old modelers...but its been ten years...its time for you to listen to what is on the market now.

I have. Impulse-based software modeling isn't bad, and I've heard some rather good clips from the Axe-FX (as well as some even more glowing reviews - evidently it even feels pretty good), but Line6 hasn't had a significant improvement in their modeling technology since the 2.0 (X3 models are unchanged, you just now have the ability to run two at once), and the Axe-FX gear, good as it may be, is in a completely different price range.

Call me a purist, but if I'm going to drop nearly $2k on a preamp, I want glowy bits of glass in it, especially if my current rig (a Roadster head) already gives me more flexibility than I really need (to say nothing of the drop-dead gorgeous tones).

 

[dintymoore]

Right, here goes... I'm just plain fed up of dragging my valve guitar amp everywhere with me so I was wondering (because it'll be a long while before I can check for myself) if any of you had ever considered ditching your guitar amps and running the following set up?:

guitar > effects > Line 6 POD > PA system

Every considered it?

Would I still be able to get a good guitar sound / tone going from the POD to our PA (Mackie SRM450's)?

pros / cons?

Here, there's been shift in gigging musicians that nearly all the guitar players at hotel gigs play through the pa. I can't tell you how much I fuckin' hate it! I think each person should have his own little sound on stage, the same as guitarists sitting around a campfire. I hire guitarists and tell them I'll only pay them if they bring their own amp. I like guitars through speakers with no horns.

The exception is, like the Eagles, if it actually sounds good. But at regular gigs I've only heard it suck big time. It seems 100% because of laziness. Can you imagine going back to when you were a kid and thinking like that?

A singer I work with went to Maui a few years ago and her band went on before the Eagles and used all their gear. She said it was like you'd expect. Next night she was on a dinner cruise gig with me playing through a Mackie board and crap speakers. In the end, you use what you've got and you carve the air in the room.

 

[ermghoti]

Modeller through PA = Real Doll.

 

[Greg_L]

Somebody with rhythm should be timekeeping...how would you play drums without him

I can hear him from the stage. 10 million watts of ampeg bass is hard to miss.

 

[Tadpui]

I say do whatever is right for you. Honestly, if you're not headlining a show where people paid to come and see you in particular, the crowd isn't going to be paying enough attention to you or your band to care whether or not you're playing through an amp, a modeller, the PA, a cardboard box with "Marshall" written in Sharpie ink, or an air guitar. No matter what you're playing through, half of them are just going to be wishing that you'd turn it down so that they can try to swing this chick without having to yell in her ear and spray her with beer-flavored spittle.

The stage volume issue is definitely a real problem. Other than hauling your own monitor, amp, or whatever, you're at the mercy of the house sound system. And like everybody says, that'd dicey at best. And if you're going to haul around your own monitor, why not just haul your amp? Monitors are freaking heavy anyways, probably comparable in weight to your amp.

I have a feeling that your best bet is to keep on like you've been doing and bring your amp with you. Maybe invest in a dolly or some casters to make it easier to lug that heavy-ass thing around. Or shell out a few bucks to somebody to carry it for you. Alcohol makes a good bartering tool!

It kinda sounds like it might be time to find a smaller amp, or to go to a head + cab setup so you can haul them seperately. 2 trips to the van with a 25 lb. enclosure might be easier than 1 trip with a 50 lb. enclosure. Plus then you get to start a thread about "what's the lightest gig-worthy amp under $500" or something like that. And then we all get to jump in and argue with each other about it, suggest things that are way out of your price range, and eventually fall into an argument about tube vs. solid-state amplifiers. Would you really want to deprive us of such fun?

 

[Greg_L]

You pussified guitarists that cry about carrying an amp need to beaten to death with a dildo.


Sincerely,
Drummers everywhere

 

[Zaphod B]

You pussified guitarists that cry about carrying an amp need to beaten to death with a dildo.


Sicerely,
Drummers everywhere

Dude, you should see the rig that I've gotten since Westfest.