Guitar amp and condenser mic - how to

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pure.fusion

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Hi all.

Yes, another condenser mic question, but bare with me - it's different.

Where do I put a condenser mic for my speaker cab if I've already got a '57 in place?

I have a singe 12" speaker with a '57 kissing the cloth (just off centre), and the mic sits off axis at about 45 degrees. I'm not interest in talking about the placement of this (right now) since I'm happy with this sound after experimentation.

I want to capture the sound with a condenser mic, to give me the best odds at getting a good recorded sound - more resources to draw on if you like. I'm about to lay a track down and I'd hate to make a nice one and find out later that I would have liked or needed a different mic-ed sound in there.

So given the above, what is the best place for this condenser mic. I know the '57 is long and pointy so you can aim it at certain parts of the speaker. Same principle with the condenser?

Oh, and the condenser is borrowed, so I don't want to screw it up. I'll be recording a 15W valve amp cranked loud. Will the mic go to the cloth again or is this too close?

Cheers,
FM
 
This is actually, already very similar to my regular setup. I use mostly open-back cabinets so along with the 57 kissin' the cloth of the front. I place the Condensor on the back-side of the amp/cab. Approx. 5-6ft away, pointed towards the open-back. If the amp is cranked, you should have plenty of clean gain on just about any interface/board to accomodate.

Past that, I pan those two tracks to the right (rarely 100%, but always one more than the other) then I re-record on a different amp the exact same way and pan them the same way on the left.



You could also do a few feet in front of the amp. I wouldn't put a condensor quite as close as the 57 though.
 
Cool.

So, If I didn't own a '57 and I was *only* using the condenser mic, I'd still place it where you are suggesting to get a recorded sound?

FM
 
There really are no hard rules other than expirement to find what sounds best to you. I'd just be careful about putting it right up against the cloth. Other than that, if you can think it, give it a shot.

What type of condensor you got?
 
Condenser mic? A "cheapy"

I think it's a Studio Projects C1. I've sang though it, recorded acoustic guitar and trumpet through it and I'm about to try the amp. Seems ok.

When it gets returned to the owner, I'd probably buy a Rode NT1 - only 'cause it seems to be the right range to buy.

My purposes are not professional, and I probably couldn't (and wouldn't want to) tell the difference between a $300 mic and a $3000 mic.

FM
 
pure.fusion said:
Condenser mic? A "cheapy"

I think it's a Studio Projects C1. I've sang though it, recorded acoustic guitar and trumpet through it and I'm about to try the amp. Seems ok.

When it gets returned to the owner, I'd probably buy a Rode NT1 - only 'cause it seems to be the right range to buy.

My purposes are not professional, and I probably couldn't (and wouldn't want to) tell the difference between a $300 mic and a $3000 mic.

FM
Click to expand...

the rode's mics are very good. i bought a k2 about 2 years ago and think it's great. (if you wanted an opinion.)

s
 
So,

Does everybody use a condenser mic like this?

Chime in and let me know how you use your condenser mic to mic up a guitar cab, where the condenser mic is your primary weapon.

Cheers,
FM
 
I can't comment on the sound of a condenser pointed at the back of a guitar cab, but keep in mind that if you have the '57 pointed at the front, the two will be 180 degrees out of phase and will cancel all of their common frequencies. It's just like mic'ing the bottom of a snare drum. You'll end up with a thin, nasty sound. Just reverse the phase of your condenser, either on your mic pre as you record, or later in your DAW, and you'll solve the problem.

Think I might try this setup tonight on my open back combo.
 
Condensers are sensitive, so you will want to reduce the volume of the amp.
If you go for the Marshall tube on 10 sound...forget it. A 57 is the best bet.

Personally, I like to record one track louder with the 57, panned hard left, then record another rack in unison at a lower volume with a condenser mic panned hard right. You get that big guitar sound that way.

Both mics need to have the 45 degree angle to capture all of the frequencies.
The back amp method can result in a harsh gritty tone. Ok if your front end is muddy. I feel the biggest issue is to ADD extra mids and hi's to the signal. You can always back them off after the fact with EQ's, but if you start with a muddy tone, you can't effectively add them later without adding more noise.

Good luck.
 
I use a condenser with a 57 sometimes, but I usually just put it on another speaker, about 4" back maybe. Just far enough back so it isn't clipping internally. the output will be hot, so you'll need a preamp with a pad, probably.

I don't know about the 45º angle thing. I've done it in cases where the guitar tone was just super harsh, but usually I go straight in. I also usually don't have the 57 right on the grill, I find at high volumes it gets too fizzy. An inch or two back and you're golden.

If your room sounds good, you can use the condenser back a ways to get that room tone, I've done that but never actually use it...

Try a few things, just go with something that sounds good. There's always something that can sound better, but the returns rapidly decrease once you've got a basically good thing going...
 
johnsuitcase said:
I also usually don't have the 57 right on the grill, I find at high volumes it gets too fizzy. An inch or two back and you're golden.
Click to expand...

Way cool. I was just listening to some recordings of my amp at high volumes and I think "fizzy" might be the word! I'll back it out a few inches and see when the result is at next opportunity.

I love the way forums work - that bit of info couldn't have come at a better time!

So, Condenser mic - doesn't sound like it's being used for *loud* stuff....

Cheers,
FM
 
It all depends on the condenser being used. That SP C1 has a lot of highs. Maybe not such a good choice for guitar cabinet micing. Good for a lot of other things, just not my choice for an amplified distorted guitar.. It'll handle the spl's all right......BUT if its all you got a recommend placing it dead center on the speaker at about 6" away and turning it on its mount or in its basket at LEAST 90 degrees off axis to start. The edge of a pattern for these types of mics tends to not be so spikey in the upper ranges. You can rotate it till you like it. For huge guitar sound, record a track of the 57 alone, the condenser alone and then move the condenser up to where your ears are . Move around the room slowly while playing your 'sound' and when you hear the great spot, put the condenser there and make another pass. Time align these in the software and blend to taste.
 
cavedog101 said:
It all depends on the condenser being used. That SP C1 has a lot of highs. Maybe not such a good choice for guitar cabinet micing. Good for a lot of other things, just not my choice for an amplified distorted guitar.. It'll handle the spl's all right......BUT if its all you got a recommend placing it dead center on the speaker at about 6" away and turning it on its mount or in its basket at LEAST 90 degrees off axis to start. The edge of a pattern for these types of mics tends to not be so spikey in the upper ranges. You can rotate it till you like it. For huge guitar sound, record a track of the 57 alone, the condenser alone and then move the condenser up to where your ears are . Move around the room slowly while playing your 'sound' and when you hear the great spot, put the condenser there and make another pass. Time align these in the software and blend to taste.
Click to expand...

Cheers Cavedog. Will try it out.

FM
 
Walk around the room while you are playing and try to find where in the room the amp sounds the best. Stick the condenser there. I like to use a condenser to pick up a little bit of the room. I have a pretty nice sounding room to track in though so that makes a world of difference.
 
I like the room mic approach. I've also been getting good results by putting a dynamic (I use a cheap no name mic that's warmer than a '57) 45 degrees off axis maybe 6 inches from the grill, with a condenser right beside it on axis. The dynamic is looking at the center of the cone from its position off to the side, and the condenser, being adjacent, is looking straight at the speaker closer to the edge. This gives me some nice variety and the ability to blend to taste with little post EQ.
 
I would like to chime in and say I always hated a condenser on an amp unless the room sounded good.

I found a great place in my new house. My stairway has a turn in it going up-stairs. It is perfect, the celing is 20' above and the steps to me seem to act like diffusers. I put a AT3050 about 3-4 feet away from the speaker (modded fender champion 600). It is the most natural sound I have ever got mic'ing an amp with a clean guitar tone. I wouldn't think about using a 57 with this setup.
 
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