group track issue

[The Flame]

hey guys, i am using cubase le and i have all my drum tracks going into a group track. i have mixed the individual pieces the way i like and have them out on the mixer so that are easy to change and all. here's my issue, i want to to control the volume of all my drum tracks, (the reason i put the tracks through the group) but when i put the volume on the group fader down i still here drums. when i put the fader up i hear the drums get louder, and when i mute the drum track the other tracks get muted. everything seems to do its job with the group track except that i cant lower the volume of the drums all the way unless i take my indivual drum tracks, (kick, snare, ect.) and put the faders down. i want to be able to fade in the drums themselves without fading in everything, like "hit the lights" or many metallica songs out there. i have the bee sonic maximizer plugin on the group track, reverb on post roll, and "datube" on post roll. even wehn i switch pre and post roll i still have the same problem. is there something i am doing wrong with the settings? any help will be cool! thanks alot.
Flame

 

[NYMorningstar]

Sounds like a routing issue. Not familiar with Le but check at the top of each individual track and make sure it is routed to the group channel.

Also, your post is real hard to read because you don't capitalize your letters or make paragraphs. Not saying you have to but if you don't care why should anyone else struggle with it?

 

[The Flame]

sry about that, i'll keep that in mind.

 

[RezN8]

Maybe what your hearing is a send effect? After lowering the group faders, scroll to the effects tracks and see if your getting a signal there.

 

[xstatic]

Group channels are like the traditional analog group or buss routings on an analog console. When you lower the drum group in volume, you are lowering the summed signal of them. This means that pre or post, all of your individual tracks assigned to that group are still sending their aux sends. In a VCA style group, lowering the VCA fader would also lower any post fade sends on the channels because the VCA fader is not summed, but is akin to lowering the faders of all assigned channels, which also lowers post fade sends. You could try linking all of your channels to your group fader. I have not tried that myself yet, but it sounds like a good idea, so I am going to try it tonight if so, I may have finally discovered how to make a VCA style fader group in Cubase Also, do you have your drum reverb set to 100% wet? If so, when you kill the gorup fader you should only be left with Drum Reverb. If not, you will still have a lot of dry drums left and can confuse the trouble shooting of your problem

 

[pikingrin]

Group channels are like the traditional analog group or buss routings on an analog console. When you lower the drum group in volume, you are lowering the summed signal of them. This means that pre or post, all of your individual tracks assigned to that group are still sending their aux sends. In a VCA style group, lowering the VCA fader would also lower any post fade sends on the channels because the VCA fader is not summed, but is akin to lowering the faders of all assigned channels, which also lowers post fade sends. You could try linking all of your channels to your group fader. I have not tried that myself yet, but it sounds like a good idea, so I am going to try it tonight if so, I may have finally discovered how to make a VCA style fader group in Cubase Also, do you have your drum reverb set to 100% wet? If so, when you kill the gorup fader you should only be left with Drum Reverb. If not, you will still have a lot of dry drums left and can confuse the trouble shooting of your problem

Alright, I'm having the same troubles as Flame using Cubase SL3.0... I record a couple of stereo tracks (using 2 mono tracks each panned left & right) of acoustic guitar, each just a bit different than the first. I then route each pair of tracks to different group channels. No effects whatsoever. I get the same thing, when I turn the group track all the way down, it just slightly reduces overall volume, but when I turn them up there is quite a boost in the volume of the signal.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong X, but you're saying that if all of the channels are routed to a single group channel then there would be a difference? I am kind of trying to do the same thing as Flame and fade each track in and out at different times without the hassle of going through automating each individual track.

 

[mixsit]

Does the program allow channels to be assigned to a group but still send to the master? Sonar does not work that way but it is common on hardware mixers.
Wayne

 

[pikingrin]

Does the program allow channels to be assigned to a group but still send to the master?

I'm not sure I understand... I was kind of under the assumption (and yes, that probably means that I'm the dumbass... ) that if you sent to a group track, the chain would look something like:
track->group track->master...
I didn't think the initial track would still route anything directly to the master fader. But it sounds as if the tracks are kind of doubled... Instead of having control over 3 or 4 different track volumes at the same time, it just makes them a little louder if you turn the group fader up a little...

Sorry for butting in!

 

[xstatic]

channel to group to master is how it does work. I think if the group channel is down and there is still some sound, then somehow the user has also assigned something elsewhere. Maybe it is even bleed from a vocal mic or something. The Cubase mixer works just like a hardware mixer in most aspects. You can only assign the primary output of a channel to one place, which is a little different from hardware mixers. You can assign to additional outputs however through the aux send portion which reclaims some of that functionality. Just like an analog console though, when you pull the group fader down, it only pulls the summed output of those channels assigned to it out of the mix. It does not affect aux sends and/or any additional output routings that may be assigned.

 

[pikingrin]

channel to group to master is how it does work. I think if the group channel is down and there is still some sound, then somehow the user has also assigned something elsewhere. Maybe it is even bleed from a vocal mic or something. The Cubase mixer works just like a hardware mixer in most aspects. You can only assign the primary output of a channel to one place, which is a little different from hardware mixers. You can assign to additional outputs however through the aux send portion which reclaims some of that functionality. Just like an analog console though, when you pull the group fader down, it only pulls the summed output of those channels assigned to it out of the mix. It does not affect aux sends and/or any additional output routings that may be assigned.

Okay, so that makes me feel a little more confused and a little more like an idiot. I'm confused as to how the "summed output" could be any different than the output going to the group track... Maybe I'm just thinking too much into this one, but it seems that if you route the individual tracks to a group track, mute the ones that are not routed to the group, adjust the volumes to your desire and use the group track fader as the "main" volume fader for those tracks that the overall volume could be adjusted from 0 to whatever, muting to whatever... But, like I said, I'm probably just thinking too far into it and overlooking the true concept of a group track...

 

[mixsit]

... I'm confused as to how the "summed output" could be any different than the output going to the group track...

I think he is saying that in this context, the 'summing is the mix of the tracks assigned to the group. But we're still looking for the original problem- some other feed off these tracks that is not being controled by the the group fader.

Maybe I'm just thinking too much into this one, but it seems that if you route the individual tracks to a group track, mute the ones that are not routed to the group, adjust the volumes to your desire and use the group track fader as the "main" volume fader for those tracks that the overall volume could be adjusted from 0 to whatever, muting to whatever... But, like I said, I'm probably just thinking too far into it and overlooking the true concept of a group track...

Not at all. The concept is fine. But something is just leaking sound somewhere.
Wayne

 

[xstatic]

Pikingrin, you and mixsit are both right. The point I was trying to make is that if 8 tracks are assigned to a group, and you turn that group down all the way, then the summed signal of those 8 tracks will be turned down all the way. However, any other audio stems coming from any one or all of those 8 tracks will still be present. This means that any inserts and aux sends fed formn those 8 channels will still be doing their thing. With a VCA style setup, the vca fader actually does not control any audio. It is a voltage controlled amplifier. When you have that same set of 8 channels assigned to a VCA there is no signal present in the actual VCA fader. It is more of a remote control. When you lower the VCA fader, it is more like you actually grabbed all 8 faders at once and pulled them down. Some people would say that this is the same, but here is the difference. When you pull a VCA fader down, it is like pulling all 8 faders at once like I said earlier. This also means that any post fade aux sends and any post fade direct outs are reduced as well. A lot of people in this day and age actually learn what they know about audio from a computer. As a result they never really get taught proper signal flow and just how exactly the standard things work. This means they may actually expect that when they mute a group that everything associated with the channel of that group are mute. In reality, only the mixed output of those channels is muted. I hope this is making a bit more sense now and not just adding any further confusion

 

[pikingrin]

Okay X, that helps out quite a bit. I understand the principle of a VCA fader, it sounds exactly like what we're trying to achieve here. The only problem now is figuring out how to do it in a digital environment such as Cubase...

 

[pikingrin]

I think I may have come up with it!!!

Alright, I wake up early every morning and kind of zone out to the weather channel rather than hitting the snooze forever...

THIS morning I was thinking, in the zone, about the question at hand and about the output selections where you set the inputs and outputs on a track... On my system they default to the FW1804 on firewire, but I wonder if you could change that to the group track!?!?!?

Then instead of the track configuration being:

Input -> Output (Interface, or whatever it defaults to)

It would be:

Input -> Group Track with no other outputs sending any signal elsewhere, regardless of effects applied...

If anyone reads this and tries it before I get a chance to, let us all know how it works or if it possible!

 

[The Flame]

thanx guys

thanx guys, i was able to get it working. it was with the pre-post faders. i kinda liked the sound with the faders on, i guess it was because it was just wetter, but i just fixed the send to give a little more reverb and "tube" to my drums. it works fine now. for all who was having this problem, take off the pre-post fader, if it is orange near the sends you will have that problem. all your manual fades and and automation will work perfectly, good luck.
Flame