Okay...
First of all (before I get on with the meat of this post) - Bravo, MSH....I applaud your decisions with regard to the topic and thread position. Not only will it work out (IMO) to be more efficient, it probably will be more ethical as well given the commercial aspect of the situation.
On to this quote:
You can also post a sticky there containing my "Risk Warning" message, or better yet, I'd be glad to write up a more general one that would apply to all group buys present and future.
Normally I wouldn't even respond to a post/request like this....but this needs some serious clarification.
Has TnC (i.e. Chance, Terry, any of the principals) endorsed your "Risk warning" message? Better yet, does your risk warning message have anything at all to do with the reality of what was presented or "advertised" by the principals at the beginning of this thread and the current group buy? Do you speak for TnC?
If not, then this statement is both arrogant, unvetted, and (at best) simply ignorant. Your "post" of nine months ago is not only irrelevant, it's completely unsupported by the principals/organizers as well as directly contrary to their own words about the products. Not only should it NOT be a sticky, it warrants direct rebuttal as it seems we have an entire crew of individuals several hundred pages into this thread trying to reinvent reality/history with regard to the presentation, testimonials, and advertisement concerning the products offered for this group buy.
Nowhere, repeat NOWHERE, was any information from the principals posted to the effect that these products were anything but "amazing"...in the original posts the claim made for the pres vs. actual N*v* channels was that "A/B sounded like A/A". The claims made were clear, understood by all, and discussed at length by hundreds of pages of posts.
Mind you (before I continue), I have posted numerous times throughout this thread in support of Chance and the amazing amount of work it took to pull off an effort of this nature. My hat is off to him for his heart and motives. At the same time, a TON of things went wrong in the design, manufacturing, (lack of) QC, etc. with regard to the execution of the preamps in particular. It is simply amazing that we continue to get the "you knew the risks" type statements from misguided and misinformed posters when this is NOWHERE mentioned in the ordering stage by the principals of this group buy. What I can't understand is why these posters continue to make a confrontation out of this when all we are looking for is information flow concerning fixes, etc. for GB pres that, while usable, are certainly defective with regard to many aspects of their design, production, and implementation beyond any standard of reasonable quality and design control.
About 30 pages back, I posted a statement that, if actually posted at the beginning of this group buy by the principals/organizers, would have virtually guaranteed that we wouldn't have had enough orders to even proceed with the preamps. Here's several quotes from that "discussion":
vicenzajay said:
Here's the deal - most of us (or at least me, I'll speak for myself) aren't on a witch hunt here at all. I'm still (and will remain) very grateful to Chance (and Randy) for all their incredible work putting this whole thing together. The sheer amount of logistical effort has been staggering, and in the end, we've received some fairly decent equipment...especially for the money.
But here's the rub: even though several members of this board continue to chant the "mantra" - "we knew what we were getting into" - the fact is that the way these units were presented by (supposedly) those involved in both design/conception/listening to these units was unequivocably positive and downright defensive at times with regard to the quality of sound and the basic all around value of the product (not to mention how they came to be). To put it mildly, that has not been the way the delivery of these units has "developed" at all. It is massively obvious that not even the smallest modicum of "responsibility" was taken or shouldered by the manufacturer of these pres - the run was, at best, perhaps the most haphazard and shoddy run in the history of "mass" production audio equipment. For those of us who specifically chose certain models of the ACMP for EQ capability, it is only natural that we are asking questions both about what happened and what the way "ahead" will be. There was never a statement from Chance or direct from the manufacturer telling us, "The group buy preamps are a crap-shoot, buy at your own risk - and if they don't work, please don't complain." Quite the opposite, actually - a manual was posted along with a reiteration of the company's "warranty" for the product (despite the fact that postage alone makes the warranty a non-entity). The only feedback during ordering and the wait for production was, "You're going to love these pres!"
Several pages back, there was a lively discussion concerning the hope that this GB would prompt a change (or at least a shift in attitude) concerning the retail "model" for audio equipment given the lessons learned during this GB. Here's the thing - why would anyone WANT to "learn" these lessons if this type of manufacturing run/end product is the result? I mentioned in a post subsequent to that discussion that perhaps the microphone products seem to have a better rate of design/manufacturing success (minus the sagging ribbons) given the last few group buys...that is still a pertinent consideration, in my opinion. In many ways, without some verifiable QA/QC and end-testing of the product, this "model" for product sale/distribution has been proven to be invalid (vice providing an "example" for other retailers). The only way (again IMO) to correctly do beta-product testing of products in this was (i.e. a "Group Buy") is to have, in big print above each new product, something to the effect of:
"Buy at your own risk - we have no idea whether this product will even turn on once it arrives. It may be missing parts, incorrectly assembled, possess disconnected cables, and it will NOT have been tested in any way prior to shipping."
If that statement had been made (not by group buy members AFTER shipping) by the manufacturers, I guarantee that there probably would not have been enough of each pre ordered to even warrant a run of the products on the assembly line.
nuemes said:
Exactly...
Chance told us on 02/08/08:
Q: just curious, but did you get an opportunity to do a side-by-side comparison with 1 of your 1073 modules?
A: (Chance) “LOL that was the first test we did. A/B sounded like A/A”
From day one Chance hyped the pres - or he was given a souped-up test pre by the factory - but if he was then why didn't he listen to Hyatt's concerns about the EQ on these? Why didn't Chance discuss it openly with Hyatt to make sure we weren't getting the sub-par pre's that Hyatt was so convinced were in production? ...And here we are today.
So, bottom line to all those trying to tell us that we don't have a valid bone to pick with the preamps - KNOCK IT OFF! We have valid concerns - not the least of which is simply some information flow. For my part, I wish Chance nothing but success - but for the sake of this type of effort in the future, some reckoning must be made, both ethically and morally, for the deficiencies in the actual realization of the product.
Jay
