Group Buy Interest?

[vicenzajay]

Actually...

Since you've deleted the message that you originally posted, I'm going to revise the reply that I had posted to that message. I do this for fairness - it seems completely unfair to leave a quote from you in place after you've deleted the message that it came from. And I want to hurry to get this done before the BBS decides that I'm no longer allowed to edit the post. I'll simply note that your original note dealt, in part, with my use of the term "poster child".



What I was trying to say is that it is exactly your set of difficulties that raises the need for the sticky in question. There's no disrespect implied, none whatsoever. I'm simply acknowledging the problems that face you as a result of this purchase, and suggesting that a warning be put in place to help others avoid a similar situation.

I can't help but wonder if you are envisioning a very different "sticky" than the one that I'm suggesting. I don't mean to seem condescending by not responding to you point by point - I just don't see that much to disagree with. Sorry, I'm really not sure what the confusion is - maybe it's my own. But the argument(s) that you post really appear to me to support my idea rather than to refute it.

I keep trying to express myself clearly. Obviously, I don't always succeed.

From my perspective, there's no reason for this to be a "confrontation".

This is very fair, Gilliland - I think you are correct in the assumption that I would want a very different "sticky". In short, I think the TnC principals (or any other group buy facilitator) should actually post an exceptionally clear, no "spin" allowed, sticky with true information regarding product design (a real sticky subject for the pres in this buy), production plant data/information/location, whether or not any QC or testing will be done, etc. (the list goes on). If it is no-kidding going to be a "group buy in which the participants are actually alpha testers for gear that is not going to have any QC or testing done after assembly prior to shipping"....then that actual statement needs to be made by the principals involved. This is where the rub has occurred in this particular round....and as I said in earlier posts, I do think the lack of testing/QC/etc. came as a surprise to Chance and co. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one until proven otherwise. However, the lessons learned here (I agree with you) need to be "learned" for anything in the future and clearly stated up front.

Again, other than the lack of information flow at this point (other than from the motivated, gifted individuals working on DIY fixes), I had fun with this GB. The thrust of any real frustration has been the paucity of info from the principals and (beating the dead horse) the exasperation with being told we don't have valid concerns.

Of course (I should mention) there are other valid issues (not specifically within the group buy) concerning the placement, hosting, advertising, discussion of any kind of commercial venture that have been raised by others. I believe those are being addressed for future policy by the mods.

In any case - I appreciate your post above.

Jay

 

[vicenzajay]

Msh...

This round of the group buy started under Dragon's ownership, when none of us were mods and there was practically no moderation. Those things are not true now. I don't think Dragon has a firm idea of the sort of issues that have transpired here, but I don't really know. He is mysterious like that . . .

That said, Dragon never endorsed the group buy to my knowledge. This is his only post on the thread:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=2723304&postcount=1274

A year before this last round.

Anyway, your argument illustrates exactly why we mods are concerned: group buy members attempting a legal claim that HR is somehow responsible for the group buy. HR is specifically rejecting that claim. In fact, this was one of the first issues I brought to the attention of the new owners once I was appointed as a mod.

Further to that position, HR will not act as an intermediary between group buy members and TNC in any attempt to force TNC to communicate in this forum.

This is actually an exceptionally succinct way of summing up both the reasons for your decision and the history involved. Great post.

Jay

 

[MCI2424]

In this economy it is best to forget about group buys and strut down to the local store to buy any equipment. You get the chance to return and full warrantee. I bought a few mics through this group buy and one ribbon is unuseable. It was fun but I did not go overboard. I looked past all the hype and passed on the pre-amps. If there was a way to get a Neve style pre-amp that cheap there would be plenty of reputable companies selling them.

 

[Gilliland]

I think you are correct in the assumption that I would want a very different "sticky". In short, I think the TnC principals (or any other group buy facilitator) should actually post an exceptionally clear, no "spin" allowed, sticky with true information regarding product design (a real sticky subject for the pres in this buy), production plant data/information/location, whether or not any QC or testing will be done, etc. (the list goes on). If it is no-kidding going to be a "group buy in which the participants are actually alpha testers for gear that is not going to have any QC or testing done after assembly prior to shipping"....then that actual statement needs to be made by the principals involved.

That might be a very good thing, but I'm not sure it's realistic. For example, I have no doubt whatsoever that our Chinese manufacturer would tell you - even now - that appropriate QC and testing had been done on this equipment. But I'm willing to bet that based on your experience, you won't participate in another group buy without getting a LOT more assurance about what is going to be eventually delivered.

I'm thinking instead of something a lot more general. Something that HR could post to cover themselves and at the same time warn potential participants. They've already said that they won't do this - so be it.

But for the record, here's the kind of thing that I had in mind. Maybe this will fan the flames, or maybe it will lay them to rest. I hope for the latter. Anyway, here is the kind of "sticky" that I think should be posted:

Community Purchases
From time to time, members of HR may see opportunities to join other members in a joint bulk purchase of a product or products for the purpose of achieving a significantly lower price. HR will neither encourage nor discourage participation in such projects, nor will HR take any responsibility for the success or failure of such projects. But potential participants should keep in mind that those who participate in community purchases do so at their own risk. There are many ways in which these projects can fail. For example:

1) The organizer(s) may collect the money and never actually place an order.

2) The selected vendor(s) may accept the order and the payment, but never actually deliver any product.

3) The organizer(s) may fail to distribute the product once it is delivered by the vendor(s).

4) The shipment may be short, so that some participants receive product and others do not.

5) The products delivered may differ from the original descriptions.

6) The products may be flawed or defective. In some cases, the delivered products may turn out to be valueless.

Some of these situations may be due to error, others due to fraud. But even in cases of fraud, there may be little recourse. So participation in a community purchase is a significant gamble. No one should join such a project without fully understanding the risks involved.

HR is merely a venue and will express no opinion on the merchantability or suitability of any product or service listed. Participation in any transaction is fully at the risk of the individuals involved.

 

[zorf]

If you wanted to organise a not for profit community based deal and leverage the expertise and volume of participants, I think a better group buy concept would be based on kits.

 

[mshilarious]

I don't think that fairly represents the experience of most group buys. If you look on Prodigy-Pro, there are probably a hundred group buys for PCB fab or parts kits, etc., nearly all of which go off without a hitch. Since PCB fab and ordering parts doesn't take four months to order and six months to ship, purchasers retain their ability to contest a credit card charge in case the group buy organizer turns out to be a scoundrel.

Most of those risks enumerated are particular to this group buy!

A general HR Free Ads TOS & disclaimer would read something like this:

Draft for discussion purposes only

Members of homerecording.com ("HR") may use this forum to advertise audio products for private sale. Dealers are not permitted to use this forum, nor any other forum on HR, to advertise their products or services. You are a dealer if you sell products or services for profit. This includes any type of compensation over and above the actual cost of the product, shipping, handling, and direct expenses of the transaction, such as customs fees, insurance, credit card processing fees, etc. If you are adding any charge to "cover your time", or "recover R&D costs", you are a dealer and are not permitted to use this forum. However, nothing in this provision shall be construed to prohibit members for listing items not originally purchased for resale on which they will realize a profit.

In addition to direct listings, members may also post links to items offered for sale on sites outside of HR. Such listings will still be subject to the prohibition against dealer posts above.

Subject to the prohibition of dealer sales, members may list opportunities for other members to join in a bulk purchase of products or services (a "group buy"). Group buy organizers must certify that the group buy is not run for profit, and that the charge to group buy participants is the actual cost of the item, including direct costs as stated above, but excluding any markup or processing charge beyond what is paid to third party vendors for fulfillment. Group buys may entail significant risks unique to their organization, and all members should take extra precautions to mitigate such risk. HR does not accept any responsibility for the success or failure of such projects.

HR is merely a venue and will express no opinion and offer no warranty on the mercantibility or suitably of any product or service listed. Participation in any transaction is fully at the risk of the individuals involved. You will not hold HR responsible for other members' content, actions, or inactions on items listed. HR is not liable for any loss of money, goodwill, or reputation, or any special, indirect, or consequential damages arising out of your use the Free Ads forum.

Members of HR may exchange information regarding their experience with other members on the Free Ads forum via the "Good Guys" thread. HR disclaims any responsibility for the content of that thread, or any other opinion expressed by HR members about other members. HR specifically disclaims any liability for libelous statements. If a member is acting in a fashion that otherwise violates the HR TOS, please use the Report Post button to notify moderators.

 

[Gilliland]

Draft for discussion purposes only

Subject to the prohibition of dealer sales, members may list opportunities for other members to join in a bulk purchase of products or services (a "group buy"). Group buy organizers must certify that the group buy is not run for profit, and that the charge to group buy participants is the actual cost of the item, including direct costs as stated above, but excluding any markup or processing charge beyond what is paid to third party vendors for fulfillment. Group buys may entail significant risks unique to their organization, and all members should take extra precautions to mitigate such risk. HR does not accept any responsibility for the success or failure of such projects.

HR is merely a venue and will express no opinion and offer no warranty on the merchantability or suitability of any product or service listed. Participation in any transaction is fully at the risk of the individuals involved. You will not hold HR responsible for other members' content, actions, or inactions on items listed. HR is not liable for any loss of money, goodwill, or reputation, or any special, indirect, or consequential damages arising out of your use the Free Ads forum.

Very good! I corrected a couple of typos/misspellings (underlined).

 

[37point5]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I successfully modded my 81 with the new transistors, and it seems to have done the trick eliminating the hum! Now it's just as quiet as my 73, which is awesome.

It took around 1 hour to finish, not including testing. I consider myself to have a moderate level of electronics experience, and probably wouldn't recommend the job to a newbie because it would be easy to lift the traces and brick the unit.

[commercial content removed]

Ryan

P.S. I'm going to post this in the DIY forum, too, and would request that any disussion/questions be asked there, since this thread is closing soon.

 

[JuliánFernández]

If there was a way to get a Neve style pre-amp that cheap there would be plenty of reputable companies selling them.

Good point right there...

 

[zorf]

I;ll be glad when this thread is gone

 

[dgatwood]

I consider myself to have a moderate level of electronics experience, and probably wouldn't recommend the job to a newbie because it would be easy to lift the traces and brick the unit.

Maybe, but probably not. I've made this change on two full pres across all the boards in question and didn't lift a single trace, including the board where I desoldered each of the transistors in about two or three seconds apiece for demonstration purposes, bam, bam, bam, bam. By contrast, I did cap replacement on four microphones a while back and lifted the same traces on all four mics.

The odds of lifting traces are dependent on how the boards are fabbed---trace thickness, trace width, glue, etc. These seem to be thick, wide traces. Based on that, I think the odds of lifting a trace on these things is pretty minimal if you're even slightly careful... heck, even if you're not.

 

[Big Kenny]

Please sir, may I have my replacement ribbons?

 

[antichef]

Maybe, but probably not. I've made this change on two full pres across all the boards in question and didn't lift a single trace, including the board where I desoldered each of the transistors in about two or three seconds apiece for demonstration purposes, bam, bam, bam, bam. By contrast, I did cap replacement on four microphones a while back and lifted the same traces on all four mics.

The odds of lifting traces are dependent on how the boards are fabbed---trace thickness, trace width, glue, etc. These seem to be thick, wide traces. Based on that, I think the odds of lifting a trace on these things is pretty minimal if you're even slightly careful... heck, even if you're not.

agreed - it *is* a lot of soldering, but the holes are so big that the old transistors fall out most of the time. I had a much, much harder time making a few mods to my ART Tube MP.

 

[RawDepth]

Please sir, may I have my replacement ribbons?

Don't be a fool. You are never going to see any ribbons. Chance will likely keep making excuses about being too busy until we all go away or forget about it. I've already written it off. I just stop at this thread about once each month for a quick little chuckle.

 

[crazydoc]

This thread has become moot. Worse than that, it has become boring. Time to close it, I agree.

 

[noisedude]

Don't be a fool. You are never going to see any ribbons. Chance will likely keep making excuses about being too busy until we all go away or forget about it. I've already written it off. I just stop at this thread about once each month for a quick little chuckle.

I can guarantee to you sir that Big Kenny is no fool.

If I was forced to guess, I'd say he articulates his anger and disappointment rather differently to the rest of us.

 

[crazydoc]

...rather differently to the rest of us.

Must be Limey English. In the USA we say "differently than."

 

[eyeteeth]

Don't be a fool. You are never going to see any ribbons. Chance will likely keep making excuses about being too busy until we all go away or forget about it. I've already written it off. I just stop at this thread about once each month for a quick little chuckle.

I hope not... I think it would shatter a lot of opinions of the man, and... as many seem to think... he is doing this to put together a for profit company, it would destroy his reputation before it even gets off the group as I'm willing to bet those that were shafted would be very vocal about it.

 

[noisedude]

Must be Limey English. In the USA we say "differently than."

Hmmmm ... I'm running both sentences through my head, and I'm sticking with "differently to". Thinking about it, "than" is clearly the correct word to have there, but it doesn't sound right or familiar.

Someone told me the other day that Americans have a word "anymore". Is that like "nevermind", where you guys just got lazy with the space bar and decided to ram consecutive words together into one new, less good word?

 

[antichef]

"differently from" ?

I used to be a stickler for using "from" rather than "than", but I don't care anymore. nevermind.