E
eyeteeth
New member
I REALLY hope that wasn't directed at my last post as you must have read far too much into it.
I'm just lookin' for an update.
- Status
I REALLY hope that wasn't directed at my last post as you must have read far too much into it.
I'm just lookin' for an update.
noisedude
New member
I think that's the right thing to do. Complete honesty is not usually a bad policy in dealing with the authorities, especially when you've done nothing wrong and want to do it right.
Mate, it's become more and more apparent that Chance is playing people for all he's worth to the point that he's almost made an artform of it
ChrisO
It's just unbelievable to me that he would have the temerity to start talking about the next round when he's not yet even put right these stupid ribbons, let alone dealt with the fact that he ordered a bunch of sight-unseen preamps that another manufacturer were not usable, but told his customers would be Neve-like.
And apart from anything else, what is left in Chance's catalogue that people will want to buy in bulk without support or warranty? Without any hype or high expectations, without preamps or ribbon mics, what is the premise of the next 'round' going to be?
noisedude
New member
He's ignoring it. He pops in, ignores everything that going on, tells us that he's busy but it's all going well, and the pops back out again.
It's not going well and he would do well to admit as much.
noisedude
New member
You wouldn't say that about any other reseller, why is Chance's business exempt? You don't really believe Chance is no more than a go-between do you? If you believe what he says, he has spent the last decade or so fulfilling orders for free (not even an obscenely rich person would give his time for nothing, much less someone starting out in business as Chance claims to be), having paid someone to design his products purely for the love of a bunch of usernames on some websites!
And as for 'acting in good faith' ........ at the very BEST, he's been negligent, not bothered to obtain proper schematics and spec/parts lists for his products, but to anyone following it has become clear that much of what he claimed about the design origins, his own input into the process, etc was not the reality, but he thought it was OK to tell you he'd paid some nameless engineer to invent the $20 Neve.
I think some of you are giving this guy a lot more benefit of the very considerable doubt than I would.
noisedude
New member
Yeah, or you could advertise it as "a crap shoot for modders" rather than a great opportunity for frugal home recording hobbyists to get amazing gear for peanuts.
'Weeding out' the very people Chance was pitching to is missing the point. If his pitch was "I can get some gear on the cheap in bulk, who wants some? It might not work or even be designed right, I've never seen it, but could be good for hobbyists", I could understand. But all of these end users who bought in good faith did so because they believed the sales pitch. 'Weeding them out' when hundreds of thousands of dollars have changed hands is not exactly doing justice to the people who paid for what was promised.
tarnationsauce2
Welcome to the jungle.
I was speaking about future group buys. Not this one. I just think he should deter and scare away people who don't understand the risk. It's not like he needs the massive amount of volume like this group buy had. We were way over the minimum quantity.
Now about the current group buy, I don't think Chance even knew the risks were as great as they have become.
apl
Stand Up Comity
I agree. He was expecting the pres to be built to design, and they weren't.
G
Gilliland
New member
If you didn't believe that he was acting in your interest, then you shouldn't have joined the group. Yes, I do believe that Chance is nothing more than a go-between. That's what he's told us, and he's given me no reason to doubt him. I don't know where your "decade" is coming from - all of these group buys took place over the past three years. I've participated in all three of them, so I know something about how we got here. Chance may eventually turn this into a business, but that's in the future.
G
Gilliland
New member
No, not at all.
That's exactly what my post last May was intended to do. Evidently, some here didn't take it seriously.
noisedude
New member
I'm not a customer of Chance's ('in the group').
'Decade' was an exaggeration of the interminable period it's taken for him to fulfil his orders.
And I think you're crazy if you believe someone would spend this amount of time peddling gear out of the goodness of his heart. And if he did, then HE'S crazy. And I don't give money to crazy people.
mshilarious
Banned
True dat. I just randomly ran across a post I put up a year ago questioning the wisdom of buying a unit that is primarily interesting because of inductors and transformers when everybody already wanted to replace the transformers in their microphones
And here we are, everybody wants to replace the inductors and the power transformer. Now, I would not have guessed that the power transformer would need replacement
In retrospect, the manufacturer should have left out the ICs driving the LEDs, that would save three taps on the transformer, which hopefully would mean they could have come up with a better design. Does anybody really need those LEDs? Isn't the VU quite a lot nicer?
Even if so, there is no reason a LED meter circuit cannot be constructed off a single-ended 24V supply . . . the Chinese need to learn KISS.
I wonder if that has potential for a cheaper solution to the power transformer problem? Just ditch the power for the LED circuits, and live without them. That means a single secondary 24V transformer with a voltage doubler circuit for phantom, yes? That's an off-the-shelf item at probably $25-$30 or so. Or did I neglect another tap?
G
Gilliland
New member
Excellent, it sounds like you made the right decision. But that leaves me more curious than ever about why you're even involved in this discussion.I'm not a customer of Chance's ('in the group').
And I think you're crazy if you believe someone would spend this amount of time peddling gear out of the goodness of his heart. And if he did, then HE'S crazy. And I don't give money to crazy people.
You don't believe that Chance would do this, so you didn't participate. Makes sense to me. So why not just let those who DID participate sort out the issues with the process?
mshilarious
Banned
This is a public BBS, people may say what they like. Take me, for example. Sometimes I heckle, sometimes I help. Often in the same post 
noisedude
New member
Several reasons. I would think that most people here know most of the reasons why I would have chosen to involve myself at this point.
Are you really that curious? Or do you just not like what I've said?
S
Steve Hogan
New member
And here we are, everybody wants to replace the inductors and the power transformer. Now, I would not have guessed that the power transformer would need replacement
In retrospect, the manufacturer should have left out the ICs driving the LEDs, that would save three taps on the transformer, which hopefully would mean they could have come up with a better design. Does anybody really need those LEDs? Isn't the VU quite a lot nicer?
Even if so, there is no reason a LED meter circuit cannot be constructed off a single-ended 24V supply . . . the Chinese need to learn KISS.
I wonder if that has potential for a cheaper solution to the power transformer problem? Just ditch the power for the LED circuits, and live without them. That means a single secondary 24V transformer with a voltage doubler circuit for phantom, yes? That's an off-the-shelf item at probably $25-$30 or so. Or did I neglect another tap?
I actually would have guessed that the power transformer would need replacement if it were not specifically designed to prevent its stray flux from causing hum and buzz in sensitive audio circuits.
The number of secondaries on the power transformer has nothing to do with the amount of stray magnetic field generated by it. That is a function of flux density in the core, which is a function of core size and shape and number of primary turns. No off-the-shelf transformer is designed for low stray field. The market is too competitive to put a 35 VA sized core in a 10 VA rated transformer. I design low-flux-density, low-stray-field power transformers for manufacterers of professional and hi-end consumer audio equipment. Some of these require, in addition to the low stray-field design, a built in magnetic shield to prevent inducing hum into sensitive audio circuits. The only really effective cure to the Group Buy AMCP preamps is a new, low-stray field power transformer or remoting the power supply.
The auxiliary Bipolar 12 Volt supply in the ACMP preamps runs all the LED's and Meter lights as well as the meter buffer and the clip LED circuitry. IMHO I don't want any of that stuff on the same 24 Volt single ended supply that powers the preamp. The single-ended 24 Volt circuitry has essentially no power supply rejection ratio, so it is important that the supply be very clean.
A word of caution about the clip lights and level meter on these AMCP preamps. Do not depend on them to be accurate, as they use only half-wave rectification. If you feed an assymetrical waveform into the preamp in one polarity you can have the clip lights and meter pinned. Swap the polarity and the meter barely reads. BTW you must swap the polarity of the incoming signal. The polarity switch, at least on the '84 swaps the leads of the output transformer, so the metering would be unaffected by the swap.
This metering and clip light circuit is poorly designed, but even a good design would use opamps and a bipolar supply. This is an example of the Chinese(?) designers Keeping It Too Simple. Audio metering MUST use full-wave precision rectifier circuitry to accurately monitor both the positive and negative half of the waveform. The only signals that half-wave rectifiers can accurately measure are sine waves, and music isn't sinusoidal. It would only have taken a few more parts and a correct circuit to implement the metering and clip lights correctly.
G
Gilliland
New member
Perhaps surprised would be a better word than curious, though I am somewhat curious. I think your viewpoint is misinformed and/or that you've jumped to some wrong conclusions. And if others here know why you're taking an interest, somehow I'm not one of them.
I just think you're mistaken about Chance's actions and intentions. You believe that Chance would never do this if he weren't making a profit. Yet people do things all the time for many reasons other than money. Sometimes people do things for charity, for fame, for respect, for friendship. There are lots of motivations other than money.
And you've called Chance negligent. That claim has some basis, but I don't see it being as black and white as you seem to. I've never met Chance in person, but I've been involved in three of these group buys. Chance isn't the most organized individual that I've ever worked with, but he does seem to get the job done. He's come through with what he's promised in every case. And without being in his shoes, I can't honestly claim that I'd be able to do better. So if Chance is negligent, it's through naivete rather than carelessness or dishonesty.
mshilarious
Banned
That's not really what I was suggesting. Let's say the budget for the power transformer was $5 (a made up number, and not in yuan, but let's play along). It's more expensive to have lots of taps than fewer taps. It is also presumably more expensive to design a quiet transformer than a leaky one. Lose the LEDs, take the money spent on taps and put it towards a quieter design.
Well, that illustrates the difficulty of this design. I don't think you are going to get both a superquiet power supply and a bunch of IC LED meters for $175. Throw out the LEDs to save money on the power supply (and metering) design.
That is a very common problem with LED meters. I have an ART pre which is very nice, but the meters are easily fooled with a sawtooth wave. Not the VUs though. It's funny to watch the LEDs and the VU do completely different things
Yes, that's true. But I don't see the relationship between full-wave rectification and a bipolar supply. They could have used a single-sided supply for the LED opamps. Heck, I built a little discrete LED meter that is full-wave rectified and single-supply. It only took four transistors and one diode (not counting the LEDs). It would have worked better with six, but I was getting tired . . .
C
chance
Well-known member
I'm not a customer of Chance's ('in the group').
'Decade' was an exaggeration of the interminable period it's taken for him to fulfil his orders.
And I think you're crazy if you believe someone would spend this amount of time peddling gear out of the goodness of his heart. And if he did, then HE'S crazy. And I don't give money to crazy people.
WOW
Call me crazy then. You can even take that one step further if you wish, because it's probably even costing me. Some time ago Alan H posted here what these pieces really cost. The price he posted was exactly what we paid. On top of that, I included duty, dock fees, broker fees, and time. I took this on by myself and can only do one thing at a time. This is the 4th GB and most who were involved in the past 3 are involved in this one. Why do I do it? I enjoy the challenge and the education. I am learning. No pain, no gain. With 1000 pres so far, there is only a few that are unhappy. I have been told by some that after they put some effort into correcting some errors that the Chinese made, they still made out big time. I have been using mine daily, as has may others. I also have disabled handicapped people that are doing the packing/shipping for free. (they get paid by the state) so I guess they are crazy too. The problem in business today is greed. If I could find a flawless deal to offer I would do it in a heartbeat. Almost 6000 pieces have been shipped and at last count only around 20 orders are still left to ship. Still think I am crazy? On top of all we've learned, this audio community has gotten closer. Many have climbed on board. We all have learned what some of the brand name mics really cost. Somewhere back in the archives you might find that person who stated with photos: "Heres the weapons grade mic that I paid $1500.00 for, and heres the mic that I got in the group buy for $98.00 AND THEY'RE THE EXACT SAME MIC. Those of you involved might remember when the manufacturer of those mics tried to shut us down. We all know that the weak link in products from China are their Xfrmrs and I think Steve Hogan is on to something here. He has the knowledge and experience to help us all. He told me "that for what we paid, there is a lot of quality in the box and with little modding, can be made right. I hate to keep saying this, but, and I know in these bad economic times I am buried in work. With all the big studios closing out here, I guess people have to go somewhere. I will be requesting shipping info soon for those who have been waiting so long for those ribbons. I want to start the mass mail system again so I can share whats new on the horizon. It's been 16 hours behind the console and my eyes are starting to cross. When I have time to post I usually post on PSW and hope someone will copy the post to here. I am only one and it's hard to find time to answer every E-mail, PM, and post so please bear with me and try to understand.
Last edited:
I
Ironklad Audio
New member
call me cynical, but i refuse to believe that dude doesn't make at least a LITTLE something off of all this...
Gidge
Lapdance Test Dummy
call me Mike, but I agree with you..
- Status