Group Buy Interest?

[Gilliland]

Excellent points by vicenzajay.

Excellent post by Vicenzajay,

I'm a bit surprised at you two. Applauding a post where someone describes my words as "arrogant, unvetted, and (at best) simply ignorant"? If someone made a post like that in any of the fora that I moderate, they'd get a gentle reminder from me that such antagonism is rude and unnecessary, and that it doesn't contribute to a healthy discussion.

I chose to respond to the post by simply demonstrating that his initial premise was completely unsupported by the facts. The rest of his rant can fall apart on its own.

Anyone who wants to can go back and read the warnings that were posted (and ignored), the many times that newcomers to the thread were encouraged to go back and read its (then) two year history so that they'd know what they were getting into. I can't speak firsthand about the mic pres - I didn't buy any - but based on what I read, I can understand completely why people are disappointed. I also understand how some could get caught up in the hyperbole and excitement surrounding these units. Without doubt, Chance made some statements that he really should not have made. But those of us who had been here from the beginning knew to take those with a grain of salt. And some of us tried to warn the others of the risk.

I apologize if it seems like I'm saying "I told you so". That's not at all my intention, and it wouldn't be accurate anyway. Just like everyone else, I expected these units to turn out to be a good value. I think Chance did as well.

Anyway, my only goal here was to try to get us into a situation where we could have an ongoing discussion in a properly structured format. I think that mshilarious has the same goal, but prefers to implement it differently, which is fine.

 

[JTC111]

Buyers did NOT 'know the risks' and WERE told that the products were superb. From the start the Chance group buy was billed as a hotline to a popular manufacturer, not a back alley 2nds and B-Stock modders party.

I think people read into it what they wanted to read into it. I got the impression from the beginning that the pres and mics would require modification to really be usable and I was following the thread closely. I knew I was assuming some risk by participating and I never expected the kind of after-delivery service that I would receive through a conventional retail shop. Could the communication be better? Sure. But I understand the logistics and I'm not feeling like I got the short end of the stick in any way.

 

[bigtom]

There was a disclaimer at the beginning of the order forum that warned of the potential pitfalls. If you didn't order, you didn't see it. If you did order and you didn't read it, that's your own fault. If you think someone should have held you close to them and explained in great detail how cruel reality can really be, then someone else should be handling your finances.

 

[noisedude]

... based on what I read, I can understand completely why people are disappointed.

Yes, because they had high expectations, after all, these units were only 'cheap' because they were being bought in a way that bypassed distribution and retail channels, that was the point of the group buy idea, right?

I also understand how some could get caught up in the hyperbole and excitement surrounding these units.

Was it a case of being caught up in it or was it a case of the design owner/reseller/principal/brand creator actually creating this hyperbole and excitement? Were his claims about the products not designed to encourage people to buy them?

Without doubt, Chance made some statements that he really should not have made.

Right. This is the nub of it. It is why people are angry, it is why the HR janitors are concerned, it is why that guy offered free legal counsel to Chance, it is why the shape of these 'group buys' will change drastically in the future, if they continue at all.

I wish you could read some of the messages I've had regarding my recent posts in this thread - people really are furious about what this purchasing group has turned out to be, and one chap who PM'd me was dumbfounded as to how there could possibly be talk of a further purchase from Chance. I think the ideas Mshilarious has laid out are the best solution to protect and provide for all of the involved parties at this point.

 

[KJI]

My 2 cents.

Risks:

Honestly, everyone should've known the risk.

They were told they would be getting newly manufactured, unmodified, quite untested, Chinese made gear at a wholesale price. They saw the problems the last group buy had with ribbons, and the mods/changes big companies added to make certain products sale-ready.

However, the potential gains outweigh(ed) the potential losses.

I personally knew the risks beforehand, and I'm happy with my purchases.

Chance possibly making profit:

Even if he did make any profit I'm sure it was gone after things like, printer ink, packing supplies, gas, etc. Not to mention all the insane tasks he did like printing each order manually...

Closing of the thread:

Just move it. No used closing the thing after it's been open so long. Though, I think it would make sense to eventually stop using it as it's gotten too big and with too much irrelevant information.

Future Group Buys:

They would be nice, but hopefully more problems should be fixed with them and more things streamlined. The shipping system, for one. About half a year and orders still haven't finished shipping/just finished shipping?

Also, a dedicated forum for the group buy/any other groupbuys would be nice.

 

[noisedude]

I think people read into it what they wanted to read into it. I got the impression from the beginning that the pres and mics would require modification to really be usable and I was following the thread closely. I knew I was assuming some risk by participating and I never expected the kind of after-delivery service that I would receive through a conventional retail shop. Could the communication be better? Sure. But I understand the logistics and I'm not feeling like I got the short end of the stick in any way.

I got the impression I could sell my Neves and pocket the difference, and I've been reading this thread as long as you have. Good job for me that I don't have any Neves and don't buy without a warranty!!

There was a disclaimer at the beginning of the order forum that warned of the potential pitfalls. If you didn't order, you didn't see it. If you did order and you didn't read it, that's your own fault. If you think someone should have held you close to them and explained in great detail how cruel reality can really be, then someone else should be handling your finances.

Nonsense. You can't have it both ways. You can't on one hand say that this product is the equal of a Neve and on the other say it might not work. That this is a custom-designed circuit but that it may turn out to be unusable without expert modification.

 

[vicenzajay]

hmmm....

Applauding a post where someone describes my words as "arrogant, unvetted, and (at best) simply ignorant"? If someone made a post like that in any of the fora that I moderate, they'd get a gentle reminder from me that such antagonism is rude and unnecessary, and that it doesn't contribute to a healthy discussion.


I chose to respond to the post by simply demonstrating that his initial premise was completely unsupported by the facts. The rest of his rant can fall apart on its own.

No, respectfully you are completely in left field here. My questions in my premise were rhetorical. Regardless of Randy and Chance's nice replies in the two quotes you posted, if I go to the TnC site, your post (or ideas) considering risk is not there; your ideas are not there; no credit is given to you for expounding eloquently the risk taken on the group buy. Not one word, actually. So my description of your request to make your post a "sticky" by the mods is right on.

If we consider Chance and Randy's replies (both of whom are fantastic people, I have maintained throughout this discussion - Randy even did me a personal favor with regard to paying for this gear as I was deploying to Iraq during the payment deadline) - the bottom line is that a LOT more was said...over and over again....about how awesome these pres were - how great they sounded - how amazed everyone was going to be. In addition, I could put numerous quotes from the first 100 or so pages of this thread that indicate (by the organizer and others) that these pres were going to be so good that anyone who wanted to sell them could probably do it at a profit. Hmmm....try doing that just now and see what happens. Bottom line is that the real answer to my first three questions is no...no...and, yes,...no again. Being able to play the "single post" game doesn't prove your position unless it is posited against the whole balance of evidential posts on the subject.

Oh, and by the way, my "rant" doesn't fall apart at all...it's actually spot on with regard to what's happened during this buy and the production of the preamps....never mind those still waiting for replacement ribbons and such from almost two years ago. If you'll actually search for my posts through this thread and this situation, you'll find that I have been supportive of Chance and the overall group buy as a whole. I have been exceptionally positive. Only this incessant "stop complaining" posting from people who won't accept valid, reasonable concerns has caused any "ranting" at all from me.

Anyone who wants to can go back and read the warnings that were posted (and ignored), the many times that newcomers to the thread were encouraged to go back and read its (then) two year history so that they'd know what they were getting into. I can't speak firsthand about the mic pres - I didn't buy any - but based on what I read, I can understand completely why people are disappointed. I also understand how some could get caught up in the hyperbole and excitement surrounding these units. Without doubt, Chance made some statements that he really should not have made. But those of us who had been here from the beginning knew to take those with a grain of salt. And some of us tried to warn the others of the risk.

Again - nice try but <insert gong sound> no cigar. If we were complaining that the pres don't sound like a real N*v* all of the "you know the risks" posters would be correct in your criticism. That is patently NOT why we are asking for information and are concerned with the way the production of these products was handled. Anyone who thought they were getting N*v*s should rightfully be taken to task for their expectations. In fact, a very high percentage of these posts attacking anyone complaining about the pres says something to the effect of berating them for expecting a N*v* pre for little money. I'm going to type this very slowly: That....is.....not....the....point!!!

Taking someone to task for questioning a run of products with a MASSIVE percentage of production/QC failures, incorrect parts used in construction from the design, complete loss of communication about these issues in any kind of a real time fashion, transformers built with hodge podge scrap pieces, etc. is incomprehensible to me....completely. As a specific example, most people who purchased 81's were purchasing them solely because of the EQ....with no need for the expanded EQ, both the 73 and 84 models offer better options, monitoring, DI inserts, etc. The very point of the 81 is the EQ....so when the 81's EQ does not function without unusable noise in the majority of units, there is a valid concern by ANY customer, no matter how the purchase was arranged, to find out why and ask for a fix. Again, these are valid concerns from any reasonable frame of mind or viewpoint, and it is immensely tiring to have the thread devolve from sensible inquiry to meaningless bickering by those who probably should really not have "pitched" into the discussion. As the board allows any opinion to be aired, you have all had your say over and over again. Most of the time I ignore it, but the request to make a "sticky" of the "Risk Warning" was something I felt needed addressing.

Lastly - your earlier post said I was something of a newcomer. While not an "oldtimer", I joined the board prior to your join date, and I've followed posts throughout the forums actively since that time. While this is the first Group Buy I've participated in, it is not the first Group Buy thread that I have read. Having watched this unfold at least two times, I am very sensitive to the gracious way in which individuals such as MSHilarious have handled both the thread and the ethical issues involved - given that he also offers excellent products for sale on his own website that are discussed at length here on HR.com.

Oh - another exceptionally important point: I am extremely grateful...unbelievably grateful actually....for individuals such as Antichef, Dgatwood and others who are doing some fantastic investigative and applicability work salvaging these units for us (not to mention the photos, directions, examples, etc. posted throughout this thread and others)....I am 100% certain that my pres (once I get home) will be able to be repaired (or brought to full functionality) at a reasonable cost with relatively easy-to-follow directions published on the board. MSH and Noisdude's plan to consolidate this information in a more efficient way (and in a "correct" forum) is a fantastic solution that will be much more efficient vice wading through pages of rhetoric in this thread. I am very happy, by the way (and for the record) with the microphones. Granted, I was only able to "try them out" while I was on leave in late December, but I noticed no problems at all.

Jay

 

[Gilliland]

Yes, because they had high expectations, after all, these units were only 'cheap' because they were being bought in a way that bypassed distribution and retail channels, that was the point of the group buy idea, right?

Was it a case of being caught up in it or was it a case of the design owner/reseller/principal/brand creator actually creating this hyperbole and excitement? Were his claims about the products not designed to encourage people to buy them?

Right. This is the nub of it. It is why people are angry, it is why the HR janitors are concerned, it is why that guy offered free legal counsel to Chance, it is why the shape of these 'group buys' will change drastically in the future, if they continue at all.

Thanks for a very even-handed response that lays out your concerns clearly and without rancor. Your points and questions are legitimate, though I think mine are as well. It's not as black and white as some seem to think.

Yes, the group buy was certainly intended to save money by avoiding the middleman markup.

If Chance "created" the hyperbole and excitement, it was because he was as caught up in it as anyone. As I said in an earlier post, there was clearly some naivete involved. Those of us who had worked with Chance through earlier group buys were probably better able to filter that just because of our history with him.

No one anticipated some of the problems that eventually surfaced. I think the manufacturer has some responsibility to resolve these issues, but I'm not sure that they will do so. I think it's likely that Chance will continue to act as an agent and focal point to communicate with the manufacturer on the group's behalf. But when we gave up the middleman's markup, we also gave up the right to demand that the middleman take responsibility. And I think that, at the very least, was made clear long before any money was collected.

Note this: I'm not saying that Chance won't take responsibility, I'm not saying that he shouldn't take responsibility, I'm just saying that we can't demand that he take responsibility.

I also think it is perfectly appropriate that others in the group work collectively to find solutions to some of the product problems. Maybe that's the difference in our viewpoints. I see this as a community of people who came together to acquire some usable products as a collective effort, and to work together to resolve issues with the process or products as they arose. You see it as a case of an unscrupulous individual taking advantage of an unsuspecting public. (And I'll apologize in advance for exaggerating your position - I'm pretty sure you wouldn't use those exact words.)

As for future group buys, I'm perfectly open to them. But if I were Chance, there's no way I'd do this again. I'm not Chance, though, so we'll see what he decides.

 

[Gilliland]

.....the request to make a "sticky" of the "Risk Warning" was something I felt needed addressing.

Again, I see no need to respond to most of your lengthy post. In fact, I don't even particularly disagree with most of it. It seems to me that you are doing a very good job of demonstrating EXACTLY why we need a sticky that warns people of the risks of participating in a group buy. You're like the poster child for it! And I mean that with all due respect.

Thanks also for sticking to the issues. Words like "arrogant" and "ignorant" are not only inappropriate, but also tend to weaken your argument.

Finally, I meant only that you were a (relative) newcomer to the thread. As has been commented many times, this thread has taken on a life of its own.

 

[noisedude]

Thanks for a very even-handed response that lays out your concerns clearly and without rancor. Your points and questions are legitimate, though I think mine are as well. It's not as black and white as some seem to think.

Yes, the group buy was certainly intended to save money by avoiding the middleman markup.

If Chance "created" the hyperbole and excitement, it was because he was as caught up in it as anyone. As I said in an earlier post, there was clearly some naivete involved. Those of us who had worked with Chance through earlier group buys were probably better able to filter that just because of our history with him.

No one anticipated some of the problems that eventually surfaced. I think the manufacturer has some responsibility to resolve these issues, but I'm not sure that they will do so. I think it's likely that Chance will continue to act as an agent and focal point to communicate with the manufacturer on the group's behalf. But when we gave up the middleman's markup, we also gave up the right to demand that the middleman take responsibility. And I think that, at the very least, was made clear long before any money was collected.

Note this: I'm not saying that Chance won't take responsibility, I'm not saying that he shouldn't take responsibility, I'm just saying that we can't demand that he take responsibility.

I also think it is perfectly appropriate that others in the group work collectively to find solutions to some of the product problems. Maybe that's the difference in our viewpoints. I see this as a community of people who came together to acquire some usable products as a collective effort, and to work together to resolve issues with the process or products as they arose. You see it as a case of an unscrupulous individual taking advantage of an unsuspecting public. (And I'll apologize in advance for exaggerating your position - I'm pretty sure you wouldn't use those exact words.)

As for future group buys, I'm perfectly open to them. But if I were Chance, there's no way I'd do this again. I'm not Chance, though, so we'll see what he decides.

I hear you. And yes, you do exaggerate my position but I understand your desire to show the contrast between our perspectives on the whole thing.

I don't think that Chance is unscrupulous but if the buys had gone well it would have been a very cheap way to build a brand and a core of loyal customers for it. And meanwhile other startups pay for Google Adwords or pay for space in magazines.

I've bought containers of music-related products from China before and my approach was not to try to get others on board by telling them how amazing the items were, but by asking if they wanted in, no skin off my nose, but they'd have to have my unimaginative brand name on it if they took them. I got through a lot of cheap guitar amps, cases and FX pedals that way when I was in MI retail! But that only works if you're ordering enough by yourself that you don't need others onboard.

One of the questions, then, that remains for me is what Chance was actually trying to achieve. If he just wanted to make up the minimum for a wholesale order, then he overcooked his hype massively and even then should have closed the thing when it got to a size that would take him months to process. If he was trying out some products to see what he could sell more of in future then I stand by what I've said about the whole issue previously.

Anyway, you do raise a point (a few posts back) about moderation team involvement in this contentious thread. As a new mod I am still learning, and apparently I can't get involved in this sort of fun (outside of the Cave at least) any more. So I'll step back and not wind anyone up.

 

[vicenzajay]

deleted...

You know...I'm deleting the original content of my post here (it was another doozy). I was about to let myself get deeply drawn into a confrontation that just wasn't worth my time, effort, attention, or anything else for that matter.

Here's the thing - I'm really looking forward to getting back home and implementing the fixes that have been worked out by the prodigypro guys, dgatwood, antichef (with those GREAT pictures and instructions), etc. These are going to be great pres.

The thing is...no amount of rationalizing and chanting "we knew what we were getting into" will ever be able to erase what was written and said all through last spring and summer.

Lastly - one more "Bravo" to MSH and Noisedude for having a sensible way ahead on this thread and its management. It really was time to make some kind of change for so many reasons and on so many levels.

 

[Gilliland]

Since you've deleted the message that you originally posted, I'm going to revise the reply that I had posted to that message. I do this for fairness - it seems completely unfair to leave a quote from you in place after you've deleted the message that it came from. And I want to hurry to get this done before the BBS decides that I'm no longer allowed to edit the post. I'll simply note that your original note dealt, in part, with my use of the term "poster child".

I'm deleting the original content of my post here (it was another doozy). I was about to let myself get deeply drawn into a confrontation that just wasn't worth my time, effort, attention, or anything else for that matter.

What I was trying to say is that it is exactly your set of difficulties that raises the need for the sticky in question. There's no disrespect implied, none whatsoever. I'm simply acknowledging the problems that face you as a result of this purchase, and suggesting that a warning be put in place to help others avoid a similar situation.

I can't help but wonder if you are envisioning a very different "sticky" than the one that I'm suggesting. I don't mean to seem condescending by not responding to you point by point - I just don't see that much to disagree with. Sorry, I'm really not sure what the confusion is - maybe it's my own. But the argument(s) that you post really appear to me to support my idea rather than to refute it.

I keep trying to express myself clearly. Obviously, I don't always succeed.

From my perspective, there's no reason for this to be a "confrontation".

 

[mshilarious]

Given what has transpired today, I am tempted to move it to the Cave

Don't worry, I'm sticking to Plan A on March 15.


Although it's tempting to have Cave vs. Group Buy, very tempting


OK, to reiterate:

- This thread closes on March 15. In the final post, I will add links to relevant threads on this board, the Rack, DIY, and if an official Group Buy thread is opened on Free Ads, that thread too.

- When I get time after March 15, I will move ACMP repair posts to a new thread on DIY. Keep in mind that I run a business, am also a tax accountant, and have six kids from one week to 11 years, so I don't have a lot of spare time. It might take me a couple of weeks.

- Discussion about caring & feeding of TNC gear remains appropriate on all relevant boards.

- Transactional exchanges must be limited to the thread on Free Ads.

- No warnings, provisos, disclaimers, or stickies will be stated or granted by HR, other than the general caveat emptor of the Free Ads board.

 

[bigtom]

I got the impression I could sell my Neves and pocket the difference, and I've been reading this thread as long as you have. Good job for me that I don't have any Neves and don't buy without a warranty!!

Nonsense. You can't have it both ways. You can't on one hand say that this product is the equal of a Neve and on the other say it might not work. That this is a custom-designed circuit but that it may turn out to be unusable without expert modification.

I learned along time ago not to believe everything I read or hear. If I did I could loose weight overnight just by taking a pill. I would also call a doctor if my erection lasted more than 4 hours instead of every lonely gal I knew. It's not having it both ways it's just using your head.

 

[MichaelJoly]

OK, to reiterate:

- This thread closes on March 15. In the final post, I will add links to relevant threads on this board, the Rack, DIY, and if an official Group Buy thread is opened on Free Ads, that thread too...

Prior to closing this thread would you consider asking Chance to make a summary statement here before it closes? There are probably a lot of people who want to hear from him regarding unresolved issues with sagging ribbons from the last group buy as well as the current problems. I really think this should happen in the context the group buy was inititiated, rather than be dispersed across other threads.

My feeling is Chance and TnC have used homerecording.com (started this thread in fact), gearslutz.com, prodidy-pro.com and other sites to promote this group buy. They have an obligation to make a closing statement about it.

 

[chris carter]

Prior to closing this thread would you consider asking Chance to make a summary statement here before it closes? There are probably a lot of people who want to hear from him regarding unresolved issues with sagging ribbons from the last group buy as well as the current problems. I really think this should happen in the context the group buy was inititiated, rather than be dispersed across other threads.

My feeling is Chance and TnC have used homerecording.com (started this thread in fact), gearslutz.com, prodidy-pro.com and other sites to promote this group buy. They have an obligation to make a closing statement about it.

Cosign.

Closing the thread before TNC resolves the outstanding issues leaves a lot of forum users left out in the cold. Not cool IMO.

 

[Gidge]

i cant speak for HR, but as a member, I dont think its HR's place to ask Chance to do anything...if Chance wants to do something he can do it in this thread b4 it closes or the the Free Ads section after...

HR did not have anything to do with this group buy other than give up free bandwidth..

 

[mshilarious]

Cosign.

Closing the thread before TNC resolves the outstanding issues leaves a lot of forum users left out in the cold. Not cool IMO.

It is incumbent upon Chance to respond to his customers. He can continue to provide a forum for resolving customer issues on Free Ads if he so chooses. He is free to post anything he likes on this thread until March 15.

 

[MichaelJoly]

It is incumbent upon Chance to respond to his customers. He can continue to provide a forum for resolving customer issues on Free Ads if he so chooses. He is free to post anything he likes on this thread until March 15.

Am I correct in understanding HomeRecording.com's owners position to be that they do not accept responsibility for enabling the group buy to occur in this forum and are not obligated to bring pressure to bear upon the thread initiator to resolve the issues within the same context that was used to promote the group buy?

There is a troubling double standard of editorial oversight being applied here.

 

[mshilarious]

So do I understand that HomeRecording.com's position is that the owners do not in any way feel responsible for enabling the group buy to occur in this forum and to bring some pressure to bear upon the thread initiator to resolve the issues within the same context?

There is a troubling double standard of editorial oversight being applied here.

This round of the group buy started under Dragon's ownership, when none of us were mods and there was practically no moderation. Those things are not true now. I don't think Dragon has a firm idea of the sort of issues that have transpired here, but I don't really know. He is mysterious like that . . .

That said, Dragon never endorsed the group buy to my knowledge. This is his only post on the thread:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=2723304&postcount=1274

A year before this last round.

Anyway, your argument illustrates exactly why we mods are concerned: group buy members attempting a legal claim that HR is somehow responsible for the group buy. HR is specifically rejecting that claim. In fact, this was one of the first issues I brought to the attention of the new owners once I was appointed as a mod.

Further to that position, HR will not act as an intermediary between group buy members and TNC in any attempt to force TNC to communicate in this forum.