Getting a huge guitar sound.

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Horkin My Lunch

Horkin My Lunch

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I don't know what it is, but no matter how much I futz around with mic placement and the amps EQ, I can never get a big guitar sound. I recently tracked a band by having the guitarist do two guitar tracks, one signal going out to two different amps, and the doubled guitar for the center. A good example of what I'm trying to get is Converge. What's the secret? Record the signal out of multiple amps? Various amounts of compression and EQ? I'm using fairly decent mics (usually a condenser and ribbon, sometimes SM57).

Here's an example of the sound I'm trying to achieve.
 
The key for me is to record each guitar track twice. No copying the track. They should be very close, but not exact copies. You can even do 3 or 4 tracks.Then simply pan each one left and right anywhere from 50-100%.
Also, make sure that the original track has good sonic clarity and level. A weak, flat tone is difficult to spice up. I would rather tone it down later.

Good luck.
 
I really should try recording it multiple times. I will admit I didn't spend as much time getting the tone I wanted since I set up all three amps and recorded both of the guitar signals simultaneously. That took forever.
 
I typically record 3 rhythm tracks, pan em left, right, and center. Even if I use the same guitar/amp it sounds great compared to any one track.
 
I'd have to agree with mattheaxe on the two tracks. Sounds like you're using decent mics and have done a lot of experimenting. Two seperate tracks split at those perameters should give you a bigger sound.
 
I should have probably told you the exact combo I was using. One amp was mic'd with a Fathead and AT2020, roughly around the center of the cone. Second amp was another Fathead and SM57, center amp was mic'd with an AKG D112 (other SM57 somehow doesn't work).
 
What i like to do as well as multi tracking the guitars, is mic the cabs up with multiple mics, that way you can pick and choose the best bits.

Also, don't forget that the room your recording in is very important as well.
 
this is what I do:
P7270098.jpg
 
try angling the mics across the speaker path. A dead center placement will result in thinner, tinnier tones. The mid tones are towards the middle of the cone and the basses are towards the outside.

45 degrees is the norm.

Good luck.
 
One other thing you can also try is, once you've got a guitar tracked, dial up a stereo delay. Set one side to something like 75msec & the other to 25ms. You can play with the delay times but don't make them too long otherwise the delay effect becomes more prominent. The idea is to just use the short delay times to just fatten up the track.
 
You have good mics. You didn't say what kind of amp/speakers you use.

Multiple tracks is good. Multiple mics is better. Multiple tracks done with multiple mics is best. Yeah, stay away from the center cone position, unless you want the brightest edgiest tone with less low and low mid. Never underestimate the ability of phasing issues to creep in where you do not expect them. If you use two or three mics, then play it back and it sounds lame or thin in ANY way, always suspect mic placement and phasing issues first. You only have to move 1 mic 1 inch in any direction to create a phasing problem. And then the sound will turn total wuss very quickly.

Are you sure you have the sound you want coming out of the amp in the first place? Cant fix it in the mix if it aint there to begin with. Keep in mind that what your ears hear standing 10 or 20 or 50 feet away from the speakers is completely different than what the mics hear 1 inch from the grill. No mic is perfect, but for the most part the mics dont lie. And recording at volume, you cant afford to put your ear where the mic is just so you can hear what the mic hears. Much experimentation is involved.

I would also submit that you will not get the playback sound you want by simply messing with eq and pan settings. You need to mess with phasing if you want to alter the spatial illusion of the sound. Commonly referred to a psycho-acoustics, there are some units that do that kind of processing. I used to use a Behringer Edison, now I use Ozone for it. You can hear the difference easily, but there is nothing built into the mixing board that will do it for you. Phasing issues with mics while recording is your enemy, phasing tricks while mixing can be your friend.
 
One amp was a Sunn Concert Lead with a ProCo Rat. Second was some random Fender solid state, also with the ProCo Rat in front of it. Center track was an old Kustom solid state with a Boss Turbo Distortion in front of it for kind of a grimy, compressed sound.

It's a punk band. The tone I was going for was kind of trashy but fierce.
 
I've experimented with multiple mic's on one take, that just doesnt do it for me... IME you can get a different tone for the track, but it doesnt beef if up like multiple takes does. To me it still just sounded like one track. Just recording 2 takes, playing the same thing as tight as possible, went a lot farther in getting that thick sound.

And yeah, definately stay away from the center of the speaker cone, that's the brightest trebley fizziest spot, the edge is waaaay dark, try it. A 1/2" in any direction makes a world of difference. I record vintage 30's, about 1/2 way between the center and the edge.
 
One amp was a Sunn Concert Lead with a ProCo Rat. Second was some random Fender solid state, also with the ProCo Rat in front of it. Center track was an old Kustom solid state with a Boss Turbo Distortion in front of it

Well there's your problem. You're trying to pound nails with a screwdriver.
 
Well there's your problem. You're trying to pound nails with a screwdriver.
You can with the other end! :confused:

I don't think the amps are the problem, because they sound great in the room.
Again, I was looking for a grimey but powerful sound. It is a punk band after all.
 
If you want heavy guitars like that, you best read this article if you haven't already.

http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

Great insight to recording heavily distorted guitars.

The main part is the chain and how you use it. I dont know but for some reason I doubt that converge had a stomp pedal in front of the amp. See if you can find out the guys recording rig for that song. Maybe you'll see a closer replica to your desired sound.
 
I'd guess it was one or more of these amps, most likely quad tracked and recorded through Kurt's quality mic pre's -
l_c16189f48ca949fd8e0444039f51ea4a.jpg
 
The key for me is to record each guitar track twice. No copying the track. They should be very close, but not exact copies. You can even do 3 or 4 tracks.Then simply pan each one left and right anywhere from 50-100%.
Also, make sure that the original track has good sonic clarity and level. A weak, flat tone is difficult to spice up. I would rather tone it down later.

Good luck.
Yes, two takes on the guitar and pan left/right. Fifty percent or more sounds a bit excessive though. Start at 15% and work your way out from there.

Go lighter on the distortion from the pedal. Don't oversaturate the stereo image. Leave out the center panned guitar. You need to give the tracks some space to breathe, otherwise it's going to sound like one big ball of mush in the center which is what you have now.

Make sure you're not sucking out the mids to make it sound more crunchy. Not all of the impact of a distorted guitar is in the bass, it's in the mid-bass and low-mids as well. The guitar tracks you have there sound rolled off in the upper-mids and highs. No definition.
 
One amp was a Sunn Concert Lead with a ProCo Rat. Second was some random Fender solid state, also with the ProCo Rat in front of it. Center track was an old Kustom solid state with a Boss Turbo Distortion in front of it for kind of a grimy, compressed sound.

It's a punk band. The tone I was going for was kind of trashy but fierce.

You will NEVER get a good sound with those for doing anything heavy. Those amps aren't designed to do that. Its like recording a death metal band on a sponge bob square pants drum kit!!!!

http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/guitargear/Ballou.html

Thats what gear the guy from converge uses, a very hefty setup, 3 bloody cabs!!! But thats why he sounds so good!!!

You CANNOT replicate this with your amps no matter how hard you try!!!
 
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