Gear Snob Alert! You Want Good Tone???

[ametth]

Dont use a fucking "modelling" amp or anything soldstate for that matter, they're not even close... Just got done with some listening tests. Sorry, just had to post.

 

[Wide Awake]

Ametth- You're just now figuring out that tube amps kick butt on solid state ? I generally agree, but there are always exceptions....like the Roland JC-120 for playing jazz.

For bass guitar, I think solid state amps and amp modeling are excellent.

 

[ametth]

Ametth- You're just now figuring out that tube amps kick butt on solid state ?

Not at all. It just seems now more than ever, people are relying on these god-awful amps to get good tone. Same with the POD's, cant say a good thing about em. I open catalogs to the big super guitar megamarts and all I see is this crap. I'ts really disheartning.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Real dangerous to generalize like that - but hey - your opinion....

MMMV (and it does...)

The rhythm guitarist in my band played a Tele thru a Fender Twin which is in the same ballpark (price-wise) as my DG100-212 (which is solid state).... The Yamaha blew it away for tone (and no - it doesn't sound like the mic-shootout clips when I set it the way I normally use it - if those happen to be the clips you were referring to!)

While I can and do see your point on the POD (especially, as I've said before for clean sounds), it's a different story with solid state amps. I'd put my Yamaha against ANY tube amp for clean sound when I run my Guild semi-acoustic thru it.... you get bell-like tones up the ying-yang! (It's actually the reason I bought the amp in the first place - I was using my Guild to compare a whole mess of amps - tube and otherwise... the Yamaha beat them all in terms of clean tone)

Incidently, you go into a music store, plug a Strat or any other guitar into any of the amps, and you will get that dead flat tone - that's what they sound like until you start into tweaking them for your own sound! I've auditioned many amps and it has always been like that everytime.

Amps are pretty much in the same league as monitors - the sound is very subjective to the individual....

So... go ahead - you can be a gear snob regarding tubes all you want... I happen to be a gear snob regarding my solid-state Yamaha, so there!!

BTW, no quarrel intended here Ametth - YMMV and MMMV and often does!!!

Bruce

 

[ametth]

It wasn't your clips...but now that you mention it. I was thinking to myslef (and to someone else), before I even knew what amp it was, that this sounds like a solid state amp...and boy was I right.

All those amps suck, they dont sound right. And if a sold state is beating out a Twin (depending on the make), then who ever plays guitar in your band does not know how to use it.

I would like you to post some good sounds from that amp, please prove me wrong. Shut me up.

This is not meant as a quarrel either, but I think your wrong on this one.


ametth
---------
Help Keep The Net Emoticon-free

 

[charger]

blah-de-fucking-blah

I'm sorry, but this discussion is just getting boring. Every day it's blah blah blah, the Pod sucks, modelling sucks, software sucks, your mom... you get the picture. I have several tube amps, and a Pod, and who the fuck cares? I have heard a shitload of bad music recorded through tube amps; it's not like they turn shit into gold. I don't understand why people feel like it's their mission to educate us about how what we hear and/or enjoy is right or wrong. Go become a politician or a teacher if that's what you want. But opinions are just that, and saying that something sucks--in your opinion--doesn't make it so.

Go play with whatever you want, it's not like you're going to be punished for having good tone.

P.S. And while we're at it, what's with this new "color " thing on TV? Now the stark contrast isn't compelling and powerful like it used to be.

 

[pchorman]

Exactly who asked?

 

[faithmonster]

can I play too?

like a line from Don Henley's "Dirty Laundry"...

"I just hafta look good.
I don't hafta be clear."

hee hee

Faithmonster

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

All those amps suck, they dont sound right.

I heartily and respectfully disagree with you!

I would like you to post some good sounds from that amp, please prove me wrong. Shut me up.

This is not meant as a quarrel either, but I think your wrong on this one.

I will try, but I am pretty busy these days - taking time to post mic clips that I think may be helpful to people is one thing, but wasting time trying to prove "an opinion" when the end result doesn't serve to help anybody is quite another. I'm really not interested in a pissing contest over tube vs solid any more than I am in a pissing contest about this pre vs that pre. Not to mention the fact that you already know my gear - I could post the best guitar recording in the world and because you already have a bias against solids, you will hear a bad tone. (Much the same like all I have to do is see the Behringer name on a piece of gear, and already I question its value - not the most objective way, but it's the way humans work!)

I have heard crap from tube amps, and I've heard crap from solid state. I'd argue in a second that if you're not hearing something good out of a decent amp (tube or solid - the ones I mentioned above are both around $1700cdn - hardly garbage), it has more to do with the player, than the amp. A good player will sound like a good player on either tube or solid - there may be subtleties in tone that a player may have preference for, but the amps are far more similar than they are dissimilar.

I say again - I think these kinds of generalizations are dangerous --- your opinion is your own, but what you are saying simply does not hold true for everyone - at least, it hasn't been *my* experience.

The other point before I stop - you keep lumping the POD and solids in the same category. I have posted quite a number of times already how I don't like the POD (pro) for clean tones, that my (solid-state) amp handles the clean tones much better.... so obviously, if my "poorly-trained" solid-state-loving ears can hear a difference between the POD and solid-state, why can't your golden "tube" ears not hear that difference???
(let me guess, tubes are so far above both??? C'mon Ametth, you gotta know that it just ain't so!)

Anyways... that's my opinion... think I'll stop now...

BTW Ametth - again, no quarrel here, I'm simply discussing the points you raised... I am not attacking you personally in any way... (these debate-type topics bring back memories -- italian family dinners were full of this kind of discourse. Dad was always right of course - no matter if he was wrong!!! ) heh-heh...

Cheers!

Bruce

 

[Cyrokk]

Truly it’s a matter of taste..

For years I’d been playing on the solid state channel of my Crate DSP using my strat and kramer guitars (And yeah I too changed the factory presets from what I heard in the store.. it records better when I have the gain pots at half mast) .. It just sounded better crunch-wise.. but recently I got sick of that sound.. I tried the tube sound with these guitars and it just did not have the same oomph..

Then I got that epiphone a couple days ago.. and I realized that the tube channel makes this guitar sound fantastic for my style of music (metal)..

And THEN I realized that it depends largely on the songs I write.. Some rhythm guitar tracks translate better with a solid state strat sound.. some with a les paul overdriven tube..

The point is I can’t make a generalization because there are too many factors involved: the kind of guitars.. the style I’m playing.. the actual rhythm structure of the song.. etc..

I’ve got my eye on that DigiTech GNX1 amp modeler.. but I guess since I’m flat broke right now I can spend the time figuring out what is now in my palette and whether it’s big enough to hold more tones..

Cy

 

[AlChuck]

Thanks. Bruce and Cyrokk, for some fresh air...

 

[ametth]

I could post the best guitar recording in the world and because you already have a bias against solids, you will hear a bad tone. (Much the same like all I have to do is see the Behringer name on a piece of gear, and already I question its value - not the most objective way, but it's the way humans work!)

I really wont have a bias, I listen to everything with an open mind, as I did your clips...how did I know they were from a solid state amp? Because it sounds like it. When I go into a music store I dont just plug in a guitar and play it and dismiss an amp. I mess with the settings trying to get a good tone, it just does not happen with soild state amps. I've played guitar for a very long time and I know how to get good sounds out of a an amp, these solid state "modelling" amps just dont cut it. But really, if you can get good tone from a solid state, I would like to hear it.

I have heard crap from tube amps, and I've heard crap from solid state. I'd argue in a second that if you're not hearing something good out of a decent amp (tube or solid - the ones I mentioned above are both around $1700cdn - hardly garbage), it has more to do with the player, than the amp. A good player will sound like a good player on either tube or solid - there may be subtleties in tone that a player may have preference for, but the amps are far more similar than they are dissimilar.

I've heard crap from tube amps too, but thats not what I'm talking about. I'm saying the best tone you can get out of a solid state amp will come nowhere close to a good sounding tube amp, period.

I say again - I think these kinds of generalizations are dangerous --- your opinion is your own, but what you are saying simply does not hold true for everyone - at least, it hasn't been *my* experience.

They cant be too dangerous when they're true. Again it comes to taste, some people prefer the awful sound of solid state amps.

The other point before I stop - you keep lumping the POD and solids in the same category. I have posted quite a number of times already how I don't like the POD (pro) for clean tones, that my (solid-state) amp handles the clean tones much better.... so obviously, if my "poorly-trained" solid-state-loving ears can hear a difference between the POD and solid-state, why can't your golden "tube" ears not hear that difference???
(let me guess, tubes are so far above both??? C'mon Ametth, you gotta know that it just ain't so!)

Yes, I am saying that. Tube amps kill anything solid state. I have played with so many amps, and it's always the tube amps that sound better. When I was at NAMM, I played with dozens of amps, and I can say without a doubt..everysingle solid state and modelling amp sucks. It may be a harsh stance to take, but it's true.

Anyways... that's my opinion... think I'll stop now...

BTW Ametth - again, no quarrel here, I'm simply discussing the points you raised... I am not attacking you personally in any way... (these debate-type topics bring back memories -- italian family dinners were full of this kind of discourse. Dad was always right of course - no matter if he was wrong!!! ) heh-heh...

I love this stuff, but I'm right! <g>

Cheers!

Bruce

Cheers and good tone!

ametth

 

[KaBudokan]

Not that this fire needs more fuel, but...

Here's a clip that I am pretty damn happy with the guitar sound on. I was going to ask you which parts where the mic'd tube amp and which were recorded through the Yamaha DG Stomp... But I decided not to do that to you.

Addiction

(Sorry, I forgot MP3.com won't let you stream directly from their site anymore. Bastards. You'll have to go to the page and listen to it.)

I also would have to say that, kind of going along with some of Bruce's comments - I think the Yamaha modeling technology is better than most of the others I've heard. I haven't heard the Cyber-Twin or some of the other amps, but of the direct boxes I've heard, the Yamaha was much better IMHO.

Just for reference, I also like my tube amp.

 

[faithmonster]

Play Dough... whatta concept!

I've pondered this many times deeply, whilst perched upon the
porcelain facility...

If you left the lid off over night would it get hard? I mean,
after all it is a MODELING amp, is it not?!?

Snickering...
F/M

 

[dabluesman]

Bruce, your a reasonable guy, have you had the chance to try a Cyber-Twin out in your studio yet?

I've had mine since Feb. and along with some of the guys at the FDP have come up with real sweet presets that we share amongst our selves. You really have to play and tweak this thing yourself for at least a week or two to realy understand its potential. I am sick of hearing from people who havent even had the chance to "properly" try out a Cyber-Twin saying how it sucks and is just a another "pod" type device with speakers attached. That way of looking at it is crazy! Go find some people who have had this amp for months and are gigging and recording with it right now. Many of the guys at the FDP have 20 & 30 + years experience with vintage tube amps as well as all the other "modeling" amps available and they all are blown away by the Cyber-Twin. I can hear a tune on the radio, and duplicate the guitar tone exactly on the C-T. And others have done this also and posted the finished preset for the rest of us to try. Anyway, i'm not going to go into much detail, because some of you already have your minds made up on this technology and this amp, and are being idiots about the whole thing. So here is a link that I found at eetimes.com that does go into the detail of how the C-T gets it's amazing tones (not all digital either, there is a lot of analog stuff going on in there.) Some of you like Bruce will probably get something out of this article. The C-T is not just another "modeling" amp. Read for yourself!:

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010604S0109

 

[ametth]

Anyway, i'm not going to go into much detail, because some of you already have your minds made up on this technology and this amp, and are being idiots about the whole thing.
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010604S0109

I know this was directed at me. How chicken shit of you to indirectly call me an idiot. If your gonna call someone an idiot, be upfront about it.

Anyway down to business. I will say it again, I have never heard a solid state or modeling amp that sounded like the real thing.

You really have to play and tweak this thing yourself for at least a week or two to realy understand its potential. I am sick of hearing from people who havent even had the chance to "properly" try out a Cyber-Twin saying how it sucks and is just a another "pod" type device with speakers attached

Who wants to spend two weeks trying to get a good sound out of an amp? Who has that kind of time? When your trying to get good sounds for a track, I dont want to be fiddling with an amp trying to coax a sound thats not even going to sound that great.

I will tell you this though, I have never tried a Cyber-Twin, I will audition one this weekend. If it sounds good, I will come back here and revise my general statement.


update: Just read the article. This quote is from that article:

"Modeling amps" attempt to skirt the tricky aspects of analog design by using DSPs to emulate an entire amplifier. But they use only a few operating points per model for their DSP algorithms or may slow the DSP's sample-processing frequency to 30 kHz or less from the industry-standard 44.1 kHz.

At Fender, both of those options were "unacceptable solutions," Curtis said. "We wanted our solution to sound as good as or better than our vintage tube amps; otherwise the project wasn't worth doing. So instead of modeling the sound of different tube circuits, we chose to reconfigure the circuitry around real tubes. Then all the DSP had to do was implement our virtual tone stacks and run the effects."

Is Fender the only amp company doing this?

I'm really going to audition this amp with an open mind. I'm not as closed mind as you think, just real picky.

 

[pchorman]

There is no form of signal processing of a simple bandwidth-limited analog guitar signal that cannot be handled in the digital domain. Does anyone want to challenge that?

Whatever characteristics you happen to find desirable of an analog tube amp are a mere joke for the flexibility and horespower available today in the digital domain. If a DMA doesn't do something in particular that you like (like emphasize certain overtones on a pinched harmonic, for example), it can easily be programmed to do so, but don't blame the technology; blame the firmware programmers of that particular amp. You are dead wrong to say the DMA will NEVER do something you want to hear. The technology is already well beyond where it needs to be to make analog and digital audio signal processing totally transparant.

 

[Hard2Hear]

I never did put up the full story on my CyberTwin here.

I bought a CT back about the same time as you, dabluesman, but mine had some glitches. I guess MARS got a batch or something, cause I heard they had trouble at several stores. It would switch presets and kick off on it's own, I don't know what was wrong with it. Anyways, after getting very frustrated, I haggled with MARS and finally was able to just return it. I really liked the sounds I did get from it, I just didn't want to deal with the issues I was afraid I would always have. Maybe the next version, I will pick one up.

Anyhows, for now, I bought a Fender Prosonic, since Fender is not making them anymore, and I've always wanted to get one. (The FDP deal, dabluesman).
Prosonics new for $799, if you're interested, email me.

H2H

 

[ametth]

There is no form of signal processing of a simple bandwidth-limited analog guitar signal that cannot be handled in the digital domain. Does anyone want to challenge that?

Whatever characteristics you happen to find desirable of an analog tube amp are a mere joke for the flexibility and horespower available today in the digital domain. If a DMA doesn't do something in particular that you like (like emphasize certain overtones on a pinched harmonic, for example), it can easily be programmed to do so, but don't blame the technology; blame the firmware programmers of that particular amp. You are dead wrong to say the DMA will NEVER do something you want to hear. The technology is already well beyond where it needs to be to make analog and digital audio signal processing totally transparant.

I didn't say it will NEVER do something I want to hear. I said it has not up to this point. To this day I have never heard any of these amps live up to the real thing. Period. I may be suprised this weekend when I try out the Cyber Twin, who knows.

 

[dabluesman]

I know this was directed at me. How chicken shit of you to indirectly call me an idiot. If your gonna call someone an idiot, be upfront about it.

So defensive!?! If it was directed solely at you, I would of said hey, ametth, your a friggin idiot. But your not the only one who feels the way you do towards this technology, so the statement was directed to all of those who feel that way. Perhaps idiot was the wrong term to use in this case... But anyway, I read and post in many forums and lots of people feel the way you do and many of them have changed their minds after "using" (not necessarily "demoing") a Cyber-Twin or even the Zentera.

Who wants to spend two weeks trying to get a good sound out of an amp? Who has that kind of time? When your trying to get good sounds for a track. I will tell you this though, I have never tried a Cyber-Twin, I will audition one this weekend. If it sounds good, I will come back here and revise my general statement.

As with anything there is a learning curve involved and anyone who has extensively used the Cyber-Twin will tell you that the Fender presets are not that great. Besides who knows what kind of guitar, playing style, room condition, and ear the Fender techs who designed the presets had at the time of their creation anyway. Most of us have agreed that the best way to demo the amp is to start with the "Your Amp Collection" group of presets rather than the "Custom Shop Presets" only as a starting point. Then tweak the knobs as desired. One thing to mention though as I've read many reviews saying how "harsh", "dry", "too much midrange", the tube amp presets sound. This is one of the reasons I said it could take a week or two to understand the C-T. Why? Well, the Timbre setting is very important in "eq'ing" the tube's warmth, prescense, or whatever.. and most people who demo the amp arent going to get that deep into editing the presets to know what a change in Timbre does. Some advice for when you demo the amp, play around with the Timbre setting! I recommend setting it to "The Razors Edge" for good tube sound. I use it primarily on most of my presets, it's just my preference. Anyway, once you get it where you want just push the save button and then you wont have to fiddle around with it to get that good sound for a track.

I dont want to be fiddling with an amp trying to coax a sound thats not even going to sound that great.

Again, statements like this make you appear to already have you mind made up on this amp. There are great sounds in this amp that you can get by minimal coaxing (I prefer to call it tweaking..)

(about the article) Is Fender the only amp company doing this?

I believe they are, thats why they have a patent for "Cybernetic Amp Design (C.A.D)" Though I think the Zentera is similar.

I'm really going to audition this amp with an open mind. I'm not as closed mind as you think, just real picky.

I hope you have an enjoyable, intuitive experience. Closed minded and pickyness is understandable, just ignore the self turning knobs, digital screen, and the little solder gun wielding gremlin Oh, and if it sounds too dry, tweak the prescense knob and the Timbre setting, also try to demo it as long as possible to get a good feel for it!

Here is a mp3 that has the Cyber-Twin performing a variety of sounds, even show casing some of the C-T's effects. I really like the "blusey" sound that comes in, and the C-T's wah is surprisingly good too.