Gain Staging? help / discussion on volume levels

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Jay C

Jay C

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on my amp ( Blackstar HT 60 ) i have 3 channels, 1 clean and 2 od. each has it's own volume knob.. my audio interface also has a volume knob, and a peak indicator. then in my daw, i have a volume for the recorded Channel, then a Master volume in the DAW.. LOL.. so im' looking at i guess (and might be wrong ) 4 stages of gain. correct? now, is there a set way for these volumes to be? as in, should my amp volume be high with low interface volume? or the other way around, and what about when im in the DAW? can someone help sort this out. i've messed with it a bit, but i'm hoping for learn a bit about it.

thanks for anyone with any comments ..
 
You're right; There are a few stages where you can control the volume.
We can rule out a few of them straight away though.
For working out tracking levels, leave everything in the DAW at 0 or unity.
Of course you play with track faders later to set the level within the mix, but for now leave them at default.

So, that leaves two really. The amp volume and the interface gain.
I suppose ideally you set them amp to the desired volume then adjust the interface gain accordingly so that your DAW shows peaks where you want them. (Leave plenty of room).

A quiet amp with hi interface gain will sound different to a loud amp with low interface gain.
Generally a quiet guitar amp will sound thinner and lack guts. Play around to find your preference.
 
Steenamaroo said:
You're right; There are a few stages where you can control the volume.
We can rule out a few of them straight away though.
For working out tracking levels, leave everything in the DAW at 0 or unity. Track faders, master faders etc...Just leave them.

So, that leaves two really. The amp volume and the interface gain.
I suppose ideally you set them amp to the desired volume then adjust the gain accordingly so that your DAW shows peaks where you want them. (Leave plenty of room).

A quiet amp with hi interface gain will sound different to a loud amp with low interface gain.
Generally a quiet guitar amp will sound thinner and lack guts. Play around to find your preference.
Click to expand...


WOW, Thank you!!! that is totally NOT how i've been doing it. it also simplifies it some as well.
i have only been a member of this site for a couple days and have already learned so much, this is great.
 
In very general terms, my goal when setting gain staging is to keep things consistent. What you don't want to do is crank things up at an early stage if that means turning them down again later on. If you have the first gain control turned up all the way and the second turned down all the way, it's wrong. Better to have both about half way up--and so on.
 
Bobbsy said:
In very general terms, my goal when setting gain staging is to keep things consistent. What you don't want to do is crank things up at an early stage if that means turning them down again later on. If you have the first gain control turned up all the way and the second turned down all the way, it's wrong. Better to have both about half way up--and so on.
Click to expand...

this also makes a lot of sense. i will mash together both of your advises.

thanks .
 
Jay C said:
this also makes a lot of sense. i will mash together both of your advises.

thanks .
Click to expand...

Bobby's advice is good. Don't apply it to the software faders though.
I'm certain that's not what he meant. ;)
 
Indeed. I was referring to the hardware stages getting the audio into the DAW in the first place.

In my set up, I have no software faders on the input side, only there for mixing so I rarely think of that side of things.
 
The gain stages on your amp are the ones that affect the distortion and tone of the amp. those need to be set to make the amp sound and react the way you want it to. This has nothing ti do with recording levels.

Once you get the sound you want out of the amp, stick the Mic in front of it. adjust the input level on your interface so a sustained power chord sits about half way up the meter in the daw. hit record.

Once recorded, adjust the channel fader to make the guitar fit in the mix the way you want it to. Leave the master fader in the daw at 0.

Recording level, monitor level and mix level are three completely different things. never adjust the recording level because the guitar isn't loud enough in your headphones. Only adjust the recording level if the recording level us not where it should be.

All the different level adjustments are used for different parts of the process. The trick is grabbing the right knob for what you are trying to do.
 
In addition to micc'ing up the amp you have two other recording options.

The FX send jack* delivers the pre amp stage signal but without of course the filtering action of the speaker nor the OD charcteristics of the output valves (but this is a blinking loud amp so you would be VERY fortunate to be able to crank it that high!)

The Emulated output feeds a signal modified to give some semblance of the speaker sound. This is intended for recording and to feed a "flat" system such as a PA.

You can even do this without a speaker plugged in thus saving the op valves and about 30 watts off the lekky bill! Keep the master volume at minimum.

N.B! Do not try this with any other valve amp!

* +4dBu or -10dBV

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
In addition to micc'ing up the amp you have two other recording options.

The FX send jack* delivers the pre amp stage signal but without of course the filtering action of the speaker nor the OD charcteristics of the output valves (but this is a blinking loud amp so you would be VERY fortunate to be able to crank it that high!)

The Emulated output feeds a signal modified to give some semblance of the speaker sound. This is intended for recording and to feed a "flat" system such as a PA.

You can even do this without a speaker plugged in thus saving the op valves and about 30 watts off the lekky bill! Keep the master volume at minimum.

N.B! Do not try this with any other valve amp!

* +4dBu or -10dBV

Dave.
Click to expand...

yeah, i should have said , i do use the emulated out. it's an amazing amp. I pat my self on the back every day for choosing it. lol..

thanks Dave :)
 
i notice now that my recorded guitar volume is a lot louder than my playing volume, while playing along. i had to turn down the fader in my interface software to -6 to match it up. is this right or is my interface screwed up.??
also i'm working with superior drummer and trilian bass, i did the same for the bass and it sounds pretty good now. but what about the drums. in my daw mixer i have all drums on there own tracks for eq and mixing purposes, and the cymbals on there own track as well. then all are sent to master output buss. how do i work the gain flow here? drums cant really be turned down untill in the daw. am i losing anything by mixing the drums in the daw b4 sending to master buss.. Am I just WAY over thinking this now. LOL>
 
You're way over thinking it.

Remember that, when recording, there are at least 3 different level settings to consider (four if you include a guitar amp).

The input gain on your interface is the important one and it should be set so the levels on your DAW (as displayed by the meters or on the graphical picture on the waveform) are the right level--average about -18 with peaks up to -10 or so.

Depending on your DAW you probably have a mixer controlling the output level--this comes into play more for mixing and, while tracking, just set it to a nice average level.

Finally, your Audio interface probably has a gain control for monitoring, both speakers and headphones. Use this to set the monitoring to a comfortable level. If it's too loud, turn it down, too soft turn it up. It won't affect your recording at all.

Unlike in mixing where what you hear is the key thing, while tracking the input gain is the important bit and should be done "by the numbers". The DAW output and monitor output can just be adjusted for comfortable listening--and they're there to be adjusted. Don't just set them to an arbitrary number then suffer because it's too loud or too soft.
 
Ok, the recording level on the interface is for getting the recording level. For the most part, everything should be recorded at the same level.

Now, since not everything will need to be the same level in the mix (example: the hi hat should not be the same volume as the lead vocal) you will need to adjust the individual levels of the tracks to get the mix to sound right. That is what the faders on the mixers are for. You set them where it sounds good and don't worry where they end up.

Again, recording level, monitoring level, mixing level and volume are all different things that are set at different points un the process by different controls.
 
so since i use superior drummer for drum tracks, i should adjust the drum levels in superior drummer right??, and leave DAW mixer faders at Unity.? also, if i was using real drums i would then use the hardware interface to set the levels?
 
You could do it in SD...to a point.
I like to build my kit in SD, which means doing some level adjustment in SD...but I don't use the SD mixer to then adjust the drum levels for mixing with the rest of my intruments/vocals......that I do in the DAW.

IOW...get a level balance of just the kit in SD...then you send your SD drums channels out as DAW audio tracks, and from there, you balance the levels of the drum tracks within the DAW, rather than always going back to SD.

I mean....you could go back the SD, but I think that will only confuse the whole process for you. Use SD simply as your kit building tool...to get a level balance of the individual drum....and not as an audio sub-mixer for the DAW.
That's just my approach....

It's the same as with the guitar amp. You first get a level at the amp for the sound you want from the amp....then after that you adjust your levels at the pre/interface for the mics...and then after that in the DAW for the actual mix.
You don't go back to the amp in order to set your levels for the mic or the DAW mix.....so the same thing with SD.
 
Bobbsy said:
You're way over thinking it.

Remember that, when recording, there are at least 3 different level settings to consider (four if you include a guitar amp).

The input gain on your interface is the important one and it should be set so the levels on your DAW (as displayed by the meters or on the graphical picture on the waveform) are the right level--average about -18 with peaks up to -10 or so.

Depending on your DAW you probably have a mixer controlling the output level--this comes into play more for mixing and, while tracking, just set it to a nice average level.

Finally, your Audio interface probably has a gain control for monitoring, both speakers and headphones. Use this to set the monitoring to a comfortable level. If it's too loud, turn it down, too soft turn it up. It won't affect your recording at all.

Unlike in mixing where what you hear is the key thing, while tracking the input gain is the important bit and should be done "by the numbers". The DAW output and monitor output can just be adjusted for comfortable listening--and they're there to be adjusted. Don't just set them to an arbitrary number then suffer because it's too loud or too soft.
Click to expand...

i have managed to achieve an average -18db in the guitar track, peaks go up to about -10. this seems really low though, i can barely see the wave form in the multi track view. it doesn't sound bad, but it seems like my hardware interface i taking the signal too strong too. to get the -18 i had to turn the input gain on my interface down so low that only 1 of the 9 indicator lights light up when im playing. am i missing something. should i be adjusting level in my hardware interface SOFTWARE aw well??

sorry to come back so late to this thread.
 
No problem.

I don't know your particular interface but it sounds like you may need to adjust its software mixer. As I said above, your goal is to not have any of your controls either super high or super low but, rather, roughly even. Give the software adjustment a try--different interfaces work in different manners. Mine doesn't even have a software level control, only the hardware.

As for the levels in Audition, yeah, it's a shock when you see them but that -18 corresponds to zero on an analogue meter. That should be the AVERAGE level though. I'd expect to see peaks six or eight dB above that.

If it's too hard to see for editing, don't forget you can zoom in and out on the waveform displays, either using the + and - buttons below the display (well, below if you use the standard screen) or by right clicking the space to the right of the waveform display and using zoom in. I do this often when editing just to see better. FYI, you can also change the meter range by right clicking on it.

By the way, my suggestions that you quoted are for setting a "normal" gain staging. As others have pointed out, with electric guitars some people actually WANT the analogue stage to add distortions as part of the sound. In this case, turning up the amp is normal... but, after that, the same method applies because you want amp distortion, not any more from the A to D conversion process. Digital distortion is kinda ugly!
 
Don't get hung up on numbers. People throw around -18 dbfs all the time like it's gospel or something. It "translates" to "0" in the analog world. Woopdy friggin doo. Set the amp so it sounds good. Set the input gain so you get a healthy signal but it's nowhere near clipping. There, you're done. It really is that simple.
 
I have read many times about recording low with -db's and headroom. Not sure I understand the fundamentals.

Is the reason for recording low that digital is more sensitive to incoming signal than analog? Also I have not come across the need for headroom? I know that in photography it is easier to fix a snap that is underexposed vs. one that is overexposed. Assuming same principle.

"Set the amp so it sounds good. Set the input gain so you get a healthy signal but it's nowhere near clipping. There, you're done. It really is that simple."

The above quote is a slam dunk if you can get that to work. However, I have the same problem as the OP. With less expensive gear - it is impossible to get a healthy signal with nowhere near clipping.
 
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