frequency same as tone?

[Logicman991]

I know this is a very basic question that i really should know, but im a little confused: Frequency is the same as tone right? A high tone (or note if you will say) is a high frequency and a low tone is a low frequency and so on. Well, im pretty sure i got that part right, but what confuses me is... when i have a chosen a software instrument, i open the keyboard and play, lets say a low note. The tone will then be of a low frequency, right?, but if i open EQ and turn on analyzer to check the frequencies, why is it showing a broad range of different frequencies? I mean, im only playing one specific note, which equals one specific frequency. Why does that sound produce many different frequencies, it's only one note isn't it?

Nice to get that out of the way.

 

[M1Fanatic]

Using the piano you mentioned as an example, there will be many more tones or frequencies displayed. You will see the fundamental tone and overtones or harmonics of the fundamental. These are multiples of the fundamental tone at various divisions of the wavelength.

A piano would sound very different with a single tone and no overtones or harmonics. In fact it would not sound like a piano at all, but a synthesizer monotone.

A guitar is the same.

 

[Logicman991]

So what you're saying is basically that a tone that comes from an instrument is made up of many tones? Sorry, but I don't understand how that works. What is it then that extinguishes that one tone from all the others if all tones are made up from many?

I realize this question may sound very stupid.

 

[drstawl]

I know this is a very basic question that i really should know, but im a little confused: Frequency is the same as tone right? A high tone (or note if you will say) is a high frequency and a low tone is a low frequency and so on. Well, im pretty sure i got that part right, but what confuses me is... when i have a chosen a software instrument, i open the keyboard and play, lets say a low note. The tone will then be of a low frequency, right?, but if i open EQ and turn on analyzer to check the frequencies, why is it showing a broad range of different frequencies? I mean, im only playing one specific note, which equals one specific frequency. Why does that sound produce many different frequencies, it's only one note isn't it?

Nice to get that out of the way.

First let's get the misuse of "tone" out of the way.

As related to frequency, a higher frequency translates to a higher PITCH.

The tone is the description of a complex mix of waveforms that include the fundamental Pitch and OVERTONES mixed down into the sound itself.

EQ of that overall mix can accentuate or kill frequencies in the mix. They may or may not be related to the tone you are looking to reproduce.

 

[Farview]

Even though the note has a specific frequency, most instruments have overtones and harmonics that are produced at other frequencies all the way up the spectrum.

It's the overtones and harmonics that make a piano playing a not sound different than a trumpet, guitar, violin, voice, or organ playing the same note.


Tone has many different meanings, using 'note' or 'pitch' instead will make communicating easier.

 

[nialldoran]

yeah exactly what everyone else has already said, although if you want to understand the difference between pitch and frequency thats when it gets complicated slightly, as frequency is how many times a second a certain thing (say a guitar string) vibrates, pitch A,B,C,D,E,F,G and all the minors or 7ths or 9ths or whatever are simply names we have given to particular frequencies,

if a string vibrate 440 times a second it is an A, 880 is also an A but and octave higher, 220 is A, but and octave lower,

as for overtones, when you play a note for example 'A' the string doesnt just carry that frequency it carries alot more too, and they are usually whole number multiples,(440x1, 440x2 440x3..etc) but thats getting into very complex theory, and as it was already stated its these overtones, along with a few other things that makes an instrument sound unique, if that was all way too much, post and say so ill break it down easier for you, as right now im a little drunk, and my head will be clearer in the morning

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Here is how this all works:

First of all, yes. A single note on an instrument is made of many different frequencies. And yet a single note on an instrument still sounds like one note, not a chord even though all of the frequency information for a chord is present. This has to do with locked phase. If the overtones share a common zero-crossing point with the fundamental, they are phase-locked. For whatever reason, our brain interprets that as one sound, not many. This is processing that occurs in our own head. In the world outside of our brains it actually is many separate sounds.

So, phase locked = one note.
No phase lock = distinct sounds in a chord.


It gets better.

Wonder how you can hear distinct notes on a bass guitar on tiny speakers that don't go that low? Since all of the overtones actually are separate sounds, our ears can (and do) sense them as separate sounds on the way in (the phase lock processing happens afterwards). The fundamental and overtones "trigger" different physical areas in our ear. Generally, lower tones and higher tones spread out down through a tube. Anyway, our brain remembers "maps" for notes. A low "E" lights up the sensors here, here, and here. When phase-locked frequencies come in, our brain looks at the map. The map we hear doesn't have to be an exact match. Something close will do. So if the fundamental itself is missing but the overtones are there, the map is still a close enough match and we hear the sound as the fundamental.

Yup. Of all the frequencies that come in, the one that registers doesn't even have to be there. Bass guitar on a tiny cheap speaker? No way that speaker can make a low E. But we can hear a low E because the overtones fill out our map well enough.

 

[moresound]

Woe Chibi..... you just blew my mind.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

To add to this, the overtones themselves actually contribute suprisingly little to our ability to tell one instrument apart from another. An "C" on a saxophone certainly sounds different than the same "C" on a piano, but it is actually the attack and decay that gives it away.

Try this:
Record various different sounding synthesizer patches that all have strong sustains. Then edit the audio to chop off the beginning and end of the sounds leaving only the constant sustain in the middle. It will be near impossible to tell the patches apart, even if they were terribly different to begin with. Interesting stuff... It's how you can do things like morph a sax solo into a guitar solo. The sax tears it up for a while and then holds a note. The sax fades before the note ends. A guitar enters holding the same note before the sax fades. Only the front of that first guitar note fades in from silence. Fun stuff.

 

[moresound]

STOP IT - STOP IT .....my brain can't take any more!

Yes that experiment is cool. I had heard of that before, and a lot of work has been put into this - and what you posted earlier - to help the deaf.

 

[Lt. Bob]

To add to this, the overtones themselves actually contribute suprisingly little to our ability to tell one instrument apart from another. An "C" on a saxophone certainly sounds different than the same "C" on a piano, but it is actually the attack and decay that gives it away.

I disagree with this although your following remarks are true.

An electric guitar and sax sound VERY similar if you phrase them the same and. in fact, that's the real key to making any patch sound realistic ...... phrasing it like the actual instrument would be played. And I have very often, thru the years, used the similarity of sax and guitar to either make a faux horn section by having the git player play two note and ohrase his lines like a horn section would and I've also phrased the sax like a git to make faux double guitar harmonies.

But that's not the only thing that distinguishes instruments.
Basically ..... if you take ANY wind instrument and remove the overtones, harmonics and distortions you have a flute.

It wouldn't matter what instrument ..... look ...... if you heard a recording of a flute, sax and trumpet but with no attack or ending ...... just a straight note .... you'd be able to tell which was which and that's because of the harmonics and distortions that some instruments have. A sax has so much hash in it (at least with a metal mthpce and hard reeds) that you can run it thru a distortion pedal and almost no amount of distortion will change the sound. I've tried.
But take a flute and run it thru that same pedal and I guarantee you'll hear it.
And don't forget, we're talking about actual acoustic instruments here so trying a test using synth patches that resemble the sound of the instruments isn't the same thing at all.
Play a recording of an actual flute and trumpet and sax using the same conditions and I know I can tell which is which easily.

 

[moresound]

Oh... I can see a blind test coming up.

 

[miroslav]

Tone can describe the general frequency flavor of a sound --- low/dark tones, high/bright tones...
...but it's more to do with the quality/character of a sound, like when describing something as having a very warm tone, harsh tone, edgy tone, bold tone, etc... and that has mostly to do with the timbre, which is really what makes two same-pitched notes from different instruments sound totally different, even if you lop off their attack/decay.

 

[M1Fanatic]

Defer to above post

 

[dintymoore]

... An "C" on a saxophone certainly sounds different than the same "C" on a piano, but it is actually the attack and decay that gives it away...

I noticed a long time ago that if you take away the attack and decay, the middle of the note on a sax, somewhat distorted guitar and harmonica are pretty much the same.

What I like is amps that have one eq control that's labeled "tone". The tone control. Did you want some tone or not so much?
Not so much for me, I'm trying to cut back.

 

[donthaveaname]

What I like is amps that have one eq control that's labeled "tone". The tone control. Did you want some tone or not so much?
Not so much for me, I'm trying to cut back.

That's always confused the crap out of me! Exactly how does the "tone" control work?
For example, this amp that I'm doodling with now has a 10K Linear pot for the highs. Obviously that means that this pot controls the level of the high frequencies based on the amount of resistance that is set... But I assume that a pot controls the level of frequencies set by a crossover... So say 8Khz - 12Khz

So how does the resistance of the pot control all of the frequencies (or the "tone")? Shouldn't it work as a volume control instead? or is it more like a Wah pedal?

 

[AbuseTheMuses]

That's always confused the crap out of me! Exactly how does the "tone" control work?
For example, this amp that I'm doodling with now has a 10K Linear pot for the highs. Obviously that means that this pot controls the level of the high frequencies based on the amount of resistance that is set... But I assume that a pot controls the level of frequencies set by a crossover... So say 8Khz - 12Khz

So how does the resistance of the pot control all of the frequencies (or the "tone")? Shouldn't it work as a volume control instead? or is it more like a Wah pedal?

It's more like a contoured EQ with guitar knobs. All tones (well maybe not direct sinewaves) have multiple things going on in them. Pick noise is very trebly, resonance is very midzy, bass is just bass. If I plug my bass guitar in and have the amp and guitar output tone set higher, I get a lot more 'picking' sound or 'string' sound and rattle sound. If I set it lower I get a darker, less 'in-your-face', more oomfy sound. I dunno if that helps, just use your ears bud.

A Wah pedal takes a very narrow frequency band and splats it all over the place, so no it isn't like a wah pedal. Think of a 'tone' knob as just a simplified equalizer.

 

[donthaveaname]

It's more like a contoured EQ with guitar knobs. All tones (well maybe not direct sinewaves) have multiple things going on in them. Pick noise is very trebly, resonance is very midzy, bass is just bass. If I plug my bass guitar in and have the amp and guitar output tone set higher, I get a lot more 'picking' sound or 'string' sound and rattle sound. If I set it lower I get a darker, less 'in-your-face', more oomfy sound. I dunno if that helps, just use your ears bud.

A Wah pedal takes a very narrow frequency band and splats it all over the place, so no it isn't like a wah pedal. Think of a 'tone' knob as just a simplified equalizer.

I'm not so much worried about the soun... I'm more interested in how it works.

 

[dintymoore]

That's always confused the crap out of me! Exactly how does the "tone" control work?
For example, this amp that I'm doodling with now has a 10K Linear pot for the highs. Obviously that means that this pot controls the level of the high frequencies based on the amount of resistance that is set... But I assume that a pot controls the level of frequencies set by a crossover... So say 8Khz - 12Khz

So how does the resistance of the pot control all of the frequencies (or the "tone")? Shouldn't it work as a volume control instead? or is it more like a Wah pedal?

All you need is a capacitor and a pot to make a passive tone control. The capacitor's value and how it's wired determines how the tone control will work, and what frequencies will be rolled off. I made a box that I plug my synth into that has a simple tone control, a pot and a cap, and I use it as a treble tone control - it rolls off the top.

Passive tone controls like that sound great, really great because they don't mess with the phase like the active tone controls on cheap mixers. The eq on most mixers is, to me, pretty unmusical.

 

[XLR]

Words like "tone" and "frequency" mean different things to people with different backgrounds... School of Rock, symphony violinist, acoustics PhD, heh.

"Tone", as I've usually seen it used at HR, means tone color (timbre). Miroslav described it well a few posts ago. Edit: OP, I see that you're using "tone" to mean "pitch", as commonly done in classical and jazz circles. Less commonly used that way at HR. "Note" is the most common term for that here IME. Heh, and that's another term that means different things.

"Frequency", as I've usually seen it used at HR, means either a cycles-per-second-measurement of a single pitch (the fundamental frequency of a sound rather than its overtones), like 440 Hz, or even more often, the individual frequency that an EQ filter is centered around. And in that context it means a frequency range. Like, "Do a slight cut at 350." might mean "Do a 2 dB cut @ 350 Hz with a wide bell filter."

Knowing the difference between "fundamental" and the "overtone series" helps in understanding the difference between tone(timbre) and frequency. Look 'em up.