Flaking finish

  • Thread starter Thread starter TelePaul
  • Start date Start date
Worst case scenraio if the finish doesnt hold up? Rory strat?
Pretty much. I'll have to admitt to not having a great deal of experience with polyurethane on guitars but that is awful soft. The polyurethane finishes I've seen have been hard are a bitch to strip. I'd want to be sure that it is'nt going to continue to degrade. Maybe Light has more experience with it. If it were me I'd call a few of the finish suppliers I use for some advice. But that dosent help you at present...I'll have a chat with some peeps in the morning
 
muttley600 said:
Pretty much. I'll have to admitt to not having a great deal of experience with polyurethane on guitars but that is awful soft. The polyurethane finishes I've seen have been hard are a bitch to strip. I'd want to be sure that it is'nt going to continue to degrade. Maybe Light has more experience with it. If it were me I'd call a few of the finish suppliers I use for some advice. But that dosent help you at present...I'll have a chat with some peeps in the morning

I'd be much obliged, but dont put yourslef out over it. Yah I asked Light to check out this thread too.
 
muttley600 said:
Like I said if your happy with the gigged look and its not spreading you should be fine.

I just took a closer look at your pic. There seems to be some sort of printing in the finish or is that just the pic?? Looks like the sort of mark gaffa tape may leave!!

May be my imagination, but isn't it maybe a reflection of the fabric the guitar is laying on-the pattern looks similar!
 
possibly thats why I asked but it seems to be on the arrised edge at the top as well!!
 
Hey Tony! Do you mean this?
 

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Thats what I was talking about is the pic or is it there in the finish??
 
Ok then you have some soft finish and its "printing". In other words the polish is soft enogh for cloth or similar to leave a mark or it was at some point even if isn't soft now...Like I said I'll ask a few guys in the morning I have to make a few calls anyhow.
 
TelePaul said:
Hey Tony! Do you mean this?

I wondered about it because it seemed to match the fabric, I don't think so if its in the finish. That is one weird phenomenon going on there-it seems related to the sunburst area too!
 
The unfortunate truth is, no matter what is causing this to happen, there is no way to touchup a Polyurethane finish so that it will look really good. It can be made level, but I think you are probably better off just thinking of this as a "beauty mark."

At a guess, what happened is that there was some form of a contaminate which was introduced and keep the finish from adhearing to the guitar.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Cheers light. Like I said, I don't care how it looks; i didn't buy it to keep it in its case forever! I guess its interesting that the revamped Highway ones have a nitro cellulose finish.
 
Light said:
The unfortunate truth is, no matter what is causing this to happen, there is no way to touchup a Polyurethane finish so that it will look really good. It can be made level, but I think you are probably better off just thinking of this as a "beauty mark."

At a guess, what happened is that there was some form of a contaminate which was introduced and keep the finish from adhearing to the guitar.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Granted..but what about the softness of the finish. Would you expect Polyurethane to be that soft? I wouldn't. I'm sure you've seen printing in soft finish before like I have but its usually on newly cured finishes. I'm waiting on a guy I know who supplies my finishing gear to call back he's a mine of experience. I'll run it past him later.
 
I have an Epi Sheraton, one of the earlier production when they were inlaying the h/stock with "Epiphone by Gibson", the guitar has a great lush finish that would be faultless except for the fact that prior to final finishing, someone that handled it hand some contaminate on their hands and left very noticable fingerprints under the clear finish..................doesn't bother me and it adds an odd quirkiness to the instrument :) .

:cool:
 
Here’s some stuff on polyurethane finishes that I have found out today. Some of it obvious some not. Although it might not solve your problem outright it may arm you with some basic info if you need to speak to Fender or one of their outlets at sometime down the road if the problem persists and you need to get it looked at.

First, there are several types of polyurethane finish. Oil modified which is solvent based and the most common it does yellow with age. Moisture cure, the most resistant and hard wearing, aging and non aging are available, mostly used in specialised pro situations, not common. Acid cure, very specialised and not common. Water based, most common non yellowing and expensive by comparison. There is no easy way to tell which you might have easily. Only Fender can advise you on that.

Polyurethane is a polish as opposed to a lacquer the main difference in this situation being that successive coats lie on top of each other and don’t react with previous coats to form one layer as lacquers do. This fact could be a lot to do with your problem.

Any contamination between coats can cause bad adhesion either on the sealer or between coats. Normally this would manifest while the finish was being applied, but can if the problem is slight not be detected. If a coat of polyurethane is layed up on top of any contamination it will not adhere correctly. Grease, oil, water can all cause an issue here and is not uncommon. In severe cases crazing, checking or dragging are evident. If one of these problems doesn’t show it self during application it can later on down the road. Similar problems can be caused by shooting a topcoat over a previous coat that has not fully cured. As polyurethane is an impervious finish it will trap solvent in the previous coat and not allow it to fully cure and it will be unable to gas off. This can lead to printing in the build up coats as although they may be fairly hard they will never fully harden!!! In normal cases this would be detected during application but if the problem is slight it can go undetected and can also happen selectively on the finish or in patches.

This info has been supplied by a guy who knows his finishing and who I trust so although I have little experience with polyurethane I would trust it. If anyone else has further info please chip in or correct any inaccuracies. He did say that such a problem would be rare but not impossible and suggested reasons are his best guess only.

Now the bad news, the only solution strip and refinish. The only people who can confirm any of this would be Fender as they know what they used and how it was applied.

I should keep a close eye on how finish as a whole holds up and hopefully if you need to speak to anyone about it in the future they will have to work harder to convince you its your fault not theirs!!!. Sorry I can’t supply a more positive solution.
 
Hey Muttley, that was so helpful, i'm very grateful. Thanks for taking the time to speak to your friend. I might rattle off a quick e mail to fender if I can and ask about what kind of Polyurethane finish. Honestly, I'm not interested in re-stripping; I played the guitar this morning and it sounds amazing. I guess i'll just let it do its thing; I imagine it'll chip away gradually over the next year or so.
 
Sure if your happy I see no reason to worry just keep an eye on it would be my advice. You can always get it looked at later if you find it becomes an issue as the fix is strip and refinish it dosen't matter if you do it now or later if required.

Would be nice to see if Fender have a comment or two just for others who may be interested. Seems to be quite a rare problem unless others know different.
 
One other thing, do you think the polish I used could have exacerbated this contagion?
 
I very much doubt that it caused it. Intuitively I would say that if there was an issue with adhesion between coats of finish or contamination there then aggressive polishing would generate heat in the polish which might accelerate any seperation. It wouldn't hurt to try and clean the guitar without to much excessive polishing. I use chamios and little and often.

Another thing I've been banging on about in other threads about finishing is how some finishes are not really suitable for applying to timber. This is an example in some ways. I'm not suggesting that It applies here and fender would have more knowledge on this finish than I do, but, Polyurethane expands and contracts at differnt rates to timber with changes in heat and humidity. In extreme cases this can cause the mechanical bond to seperate after this has happened many times. If the timber in the body of the guitar expands or contracts because of changes in heat or humidity as all timber will to a greater or lesser degree, the finish should be allowed to go with it. The arguement for polyurethne is that it will not allow moisture and to some dgree heat to pass through the finish so it dosen't matter. I'm not entirely convinced of that!!

Again I'm not suggesting that is the case here as I've not witnessed it with polyurethane. It may be a consideration. Like I said before this is all best guess stuff. From your description and the pictures contamination and/or trapped solvent would seem more likely....As I now understand it polyurethane should not really be chemically attacked by standard household cleaners.
 
cool cool. I used the polish on my bass too...nitro finish..and it looks great. Giess it could be the polyurethane contracting...its an alder body. E mailed fender to satisfy my curiosity.
 
muttley600 said:
Another thing I've been banging on about in other threads about finishing is how some finishes are not really suitable for applying to timber. This is an example in some ways. I'm not suggesting that It applies here and fender would have more knowledge on this finish than I do, but, Polyurethane expands and contracts at differnt rates to timber with changes in heat and humidity. In extreme cases this can cause the mechanical bond to seperate after this has happened many times. If the timber in the body of the guitar expands or contracts because of changes in heat or humidity as all timber will to a greater or lesser degree, the finish should be allowed to go with it. The arguement for polyurethne is that it will not allow moisture and to some dgree heat to pass through the finish so it dosen't matter. I'm not entirely convinced of that!!
.

I think you might be onto something there. Having seen the guitar in the flesh, as it were, I noticed that the finish seems to be raising ever so slightly along the grain in certain parts. It is only apperent at an angle under light, but it is still definitely there. I would imagine that swelling timber could lift the polyurethene slightly if adhesion isn't all it should be.

Having said that, the guitar plays beautifully and sounds fantastic. Personally, I think that a few marks of character do not in any way detract from an instrument. They are tools, right? You don't buy them to put in a cabinet. As TelePaul has said, worst case scenario you're looking at a 'Rory' guitar somewhere down the line. Last I checked, people were paying big money for that look.
 
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