First "nice" mic purchase: Question for Mr. Hyatt

Beezoboy · Oct 29, 2002

Ok first of all here is my "locker"

1- MXLV67b Gold
2- MXL603s
2- Behringer ECM8000
3- SM57
4- SM58
1- Peavey 520i (nice bass drum mic)
1- Sennhieser MD441U
2- RS 33-3032
3- ATPro25

Ok my band is doing its first ALBUM and we will start recording in the next few weeks. I would still like to have a couple more vocal mic options so here are the mics I am considering. *NOTE* I would like a PAIR if price permits as I do a lot of classical stereo recording, also multiple patterns would be nice.

Mics I am looking at:
MXL V77 (only cardoid) $299 each
Studio Projects C3 (multi) $350 each
ADK a51s (V) (only cardiod) $599 matched pair
Studio Projects T3 - (multi) $599 each
Neumann TLM103 - (only cardoid) $689 w/ shockmount

The Studio Projects mics are looking really good to me due to the switchable patterns. Also, I have heard many good things about both the C3 and T3. Of course the TLM103 is good, but I think less flexible. And I need flexability because I only have 1 LD condeser.

-My biggest question is whether the T3 could be used in a pair for classical recording and advanced stereo recording? I know the T3 will sound good on vocals, but I don't know if its color would overpower a classical recording.

-I was wondering if the C3 would be a good choice for stereo recording? It seems that it is described as a great choice for ambient and room micing. In cardoid would it be a good contender to the TLM103. Also, does it work well as overheads for drums?

I know this is a lot to ask
Beezoboy

Michael Jones · Oct 29, 2002

I'm sure Alan will be along to help out, but I can offer this:
I have a pair of TLM103's and they are fantastic for Stereo recording.

I have a single SP T3, which I think is a great mic, but owning only one of them, I can't say how it would perform in a stereo configuration. My guess would be it would sound really well, if you were able to match the patterns exactly. The T3 is a varible pattern condensor, and the switch has no stops if I remember correctly.

I don't have any of the other mics you were interested in buying.

Beezoboy · Oct 29, 2002

I know that the TLM103 is a good mic, but I am really afraid of being limited by its one pattern. I don't have a great room to work with, but I do have decent one when the computers are not in the room.

Aside from that, would you say you like the T3 better or worse than a single TLM103? While I want a good stereo pair of microphones, I would like to have a solid performer in the vocal mic category. I think with my collection of mics I have a good base to record a lot of sources, like bass, guitar cab, acoustic guitar, auxilary pecussion, and drums. But right now I really only have a 57, MXLv67, and Md441U that would be suitable for vocals. And as far as stereo recording goes, the 603's are really about it. If the T3 is significantly better than the C3 and also better than the TLM103, then I will definately get one now and one later. But if the TLM103 is the only way to go, I would certainly not mind if the sonic resuts warrant it, even though my wallet will hate it. Actually though the C3 is perfect for my wallet.

Beezoboy

Beezoboy · Oct 30, 2002

Mr. Hyatt?? Mr. Gerst?? Mr. Rogers??

Anyone out there?
Thanks for the reply Mr. Jones.

Beezoboy

Dot · Oct 31, 2002

Beezoboy said:
I would like a PAIR if price permits as I do a lot of classical stereo recording, also multiple patterns would be nice.

If you're going to ever record classical music in stereo, then I'd recommend a pair of SP B3's. They are $159 each. Multi-pattern and very versatile. I would recommend them over the C series for that application. But then, you'd probably have enough $ left over for a C3 anyway. Great on vox. $667 for three mics. Less than a 103, and the C3 alone is a better mic, IMO.

----------------
Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound

Beezoboy · Oct 31, 2002

So do you think the B3's because they're more transparent? Have you used both of these mics? I have been searching through the posts and Recording Engineer seemed to like the C3.

Unfortunately, with the exception of Michael Jones, there doesn't seem to be many people that record classical music or instuments, with the exception of guitar. I mean, I do see a post here and there about horns, but people rarely ever ask about a string quartet or how to mic an orchestra or band or choir. So I am at a loss for the type of mic for this.

I know that SD condensers would normally be suggested, and that the KM84/184, and Earthworks mics would be strong performers, but I want to have more options for the money.

Beezoboy

darrin_h2000 · Oct 31, 2002

Alans in england this week,but if he were here he would tell you to get the T3.

Ask Gascap for string recording advice.

Beezoboy · Oct 31, 2002

This is not a mic that will make mediocre sound good, but when you've got a professor at New England Conservatory of Music with an early 18th century viola from Hell with the $12,000 bow (I do-Heh), this mic rocks! It will bring out fine mid-range detail that none of my other mics do. – Richard Monroe

C3 is one of my 2 vocal staples, the other is Rode NTK. Yes, I want my Neumann-Avalon channel, but right now I'm tracking half an album with a C3 because it works. I find I prefer C3 with acoustic sound, mic'd up pretty. I use NTK with slightly colored guitar, mostly a Taylor jacked into a Joemeek pre as a high-Z DI. Not conventional wisdom, but it's working for me on about half the songs. C3 is a robust, solid, impressively clean mic, an excellent ambient or room mic, and beautiful on clean vocals. - Richard Monroe

To me, the C3 is a bit more airy on the top end...Not harsh or bright, but smooth. Good low end as well. It almost is as if the C3 has some Tube character to it . . . Anyway, they are close, yet different. The C1 gets all the attention but for me the C3 is better, and it has the three patterns. . . If it comes down to only one mic for that money, it is the C3 for me. – Alan Hyatt (post has been edited to only reflect comments relating to the C3) - Richard Monroe

Nice choice... It's pretty damn rare to find a good mic, not hyped in the highend, at a great price! That's why I opted for the C3 – Recording Engineer

=========================================================
Ok I have been saving posts I have read about the C3 and here is mostly what I have gotten. Anyone else have some suggestions?

Thanks for chiming in Darrin_h2000. Do you have a T3. Can you tell me some specific reasons why he might say the T3? I am really interested to know.

I hope I am not annoying you guys I am just really interested to get a lot of opinions before I spend 7 or 8 hundred dollars on 1 or 2 mics.

Beezoboy

Wireneck · Oct 31, 2002

I tell you what you do man. You go straight on over to Deloaches music and speak with S S S S S S Swindle. He will hook you up with the best mic you have ever heard on vocals. (Peavey of course). Hey he might even throw in a free mic cable or two. sorry i couldnt resist.

Beezoboy · Nov 1, 2002

Hey man believe it or not some of those Peavey mics aren't bad. I have a 520i that I use for kick and it sounds great. Someone posted that another one of thier mics is really good for acoustic guitar too. Who would have thought.

Of course I did not buy my 520i from s s s s swindle though. At Deloaches they charge like $320 for a mic I picked up for $109.

Beezoboy

Richard Monroe · Nov 1, 2002

Yo Beezo, I think you typo'd an attribution above, and stuck my name onto the end of a quote from Alan Hyatt. Please edit that. Aside from that, C3 is a lovely vocal mic for certain applications, and has uses for acoustic instruments, but I don't own 2, and can't comment on what it would do in stereo. The large housing might tend to place the diaphagms a little farther apart than I like for a coincedent pair, but as a spaced pair, they might dovery well.
I think you could use it as a figure-8 with your V67 as an MS combo. I think you need a tube mic in your cabinet, and a multi-polar FET. Rather than a pair of LD's, I would consider 1 C3 and a T3 or NTK. Don't be a stranger, I am also home tracking my first CD, as well as producing it. I hope to hear your stuff when it's ready. Welcome to what we call "The Roland House of Pain!"- Richie

screws · Nov 1, 2002

Monty Python -- "And now for something completely different".

Just my two cents, but I've got a V67 and what I'd be looking for is something completely different sounding. I've never heard the C1 or C3, but I've heard most of the Marshall line of Chinese manufactured mics, and in my opinion, they all are variations on a theme.

What I mean is, there is a small degree of similarity to most of them, but there is a huge difference in sound between them and my CAD E300 or my Rode NTK or my AKG C4000b. The 4000 is an especially nice choice with a pad, rolloff and 3 patterns for about $500.00. And it's a night and day different flavor than the V67. And what I want is VARIETY!

So my suggestion would be to bring your V67 to a dealer with you, and compare it to a bunch of other stuff. Then get something completely different.

chessparov · Nov 1, 2002

Beezoboy, I should have remembered to suggest you get the
"Sessions" CD from Studio Projects. Both the C3 and T3 sound
terrific on it IMHO. You can also check to see if a B series listening
CD is ready yet to be sent to you.
Justin Hyatt and the rest of the crew should be there even though Alan is "across the Pond".
They have a toll free phone # on their website, it's worth a call
and/or e-mail.

Chris

Wireneck · Nov 1, 2002

my point exactly

"At Deloaches they charge like $320 for a mic I picked up for $109." that was exactly what i was thinking. Its funny how no one else in this stupid town seems to notice how highly inflated his prices are. I guess thats what happens when there is no competition for 100 miles.

Beezoboy · Nov 2, 2002

OK cool. I'll go check that CD out.

Thanks Chessparov!

Beezoboy

Richard Monroe · Nov 2, 2002

Beezo- 2nd request- Please edit your poat. Take my name off the end of Alan's comment.-Richie

Gidge · Nov 2, 2002

he cant edit it...he has to email Dragon or maybe the Moderator to edit it.....

Michael Jones · Nov 2, 2002

Beezoboy said:
I know that the TLM103 is a good mic, but I am really afraid of being limited by its one pattern.

For typical stereo recording (ie. coincent pair, or spaced pair) I don't think you'll find this as an impediment.

I don't have a great room to work with, but I do have decent one when the computers are not in the room.

Then it would seem to me that a cardioid pattern microphone, and a close miking technique would yeild the best results.

Aside from that, would you say you like the T3 better or worse than a single TLM103?

Well, it depends. On some things I like the TLM103's and on some things I like the T3. In general though, I like the TLM103's on piano, and the T3 on vocals.

While I want a good stereo pair of microphones, I would like to have a solid performer in the vocal mic category.

What are you going to record in stereo? In my findings, a pair of small diameter condensors, like the Shure sm81's or the Neumann KM184's yeild the best instrtument stereo recordings. In general, and there are exceptions to this rule, but in general, small diameter condensors will capture greater detail than their LD counterparts.

I think with my collection of mics I have a good base to record a lot of sources, like bass, guitar cab, acoustic guitar, auxilary pecussion, and drums. But right now I really only have a 57, MXLv67, and Md441U that would be suitable for vocals.

Although I don't own one, I hear great things about the MD441U as a vocal mic. Someone here did a REALLY good job recording saxophone using the V67. Those 3 do make good vocal mics. If you're looking for another vocal mic, there's more available right now than you could shake a stick at.
My favorite vocal mics, in no particular order:
Shure SM7
SP T3
RCA 77DX
V67

And as far as stereo recording goes, the 603's are really about it.

The 603's wouldn't be MY first choice as a stereo pair, but I bet with judicial placement, you could achieve satisfactory results.

If the T3 is significantly better than the C3 and also better than the TLM103, then I will definately get one now and one later.

Well, I don't own a C3 so I can't say how it compares to the others. The T3 is a grreat vocal mic for me. The TLM 103's are fantasic as a spaced stereo pair on grand piano. Both of them work good in other applications too. You just have to use your ears to decide which, and where. I wouldn't say that one is significantly better than the others; just significantly different.

But if the TLM103 is the only way to go, I would certainly not mind if the sonic resuts warrant it, even though my wallet will hate it. Actually though the C3 is perfect for my wallet.

I've been happy with my TLM103's. I wish I could A/B the two for you, but I don't have any C3's. I understand sometimes economics dictate. I wouldn't be ashamed to have a C3 or two in my locker.
Good luck in your quest. I wish I could be of more help.

Oh, By the way, I did check on the T3 and its varible pattern power supply does have stops, so matching patterns with 2 would be less problematic than I thought.

Michael Jones · Nov 2, 2002

Beezoboy said:
...Unfortunately, with the exception of Michael Jones, there doesn't seem to be many people that record classical music or instuments...

In general I think that's true, but Harvey's given me immeasurable help with regards to small stringed ensemble recording.
Littledog has been instrumental (pun intended) in helping me record grand piano as well.
There are people available here that can help in classical recording, there's just more here that record typical rock sessions.
you'll surprised sometimes who'll chime in with really good advise!