Finally ready to record 170 children, in groups of 10...mic question remains. Advice?

[mgraffeo]

Julia,

No need for apologies; that's a really good question. I'm not sure that I have the answer, but thought that I'd point out two things.

1) by using the headphones and the smaller groups, you have more mixing flexibility, and a little more control over the quality of the sound on the final mix. But, recording using headphones can be disorienting, especially with kids who may have never tried it before. There are many semi-professional musicians who have difficulty doing it.

2) by just recording the group with the music through the PA, it may be easier for the performers, but you'll have a lot less flexibility for the mix. So the sound quality is really in getting a great live recording. There's one way around this, which would involve using the rejection pattern of a cardiod mic, and placing the PA to the rear of the mics, and the kids to the front. As long as you can hang a lot of stuff on the walls, this may work. But I'm still skeptical. Either way, you'll have a hard time mixing in the tracks you've already laid down, due to delay/latency issues.

I'd give the headphones a try, and only try the PA if the kids are having a really hard time with them. Sometimes kids pick up stuff a lot faster than adults do!

 

[Julia]

To mgraffeo...

Good morning, mgraffeo...

Thank you very much for your response on this issue as well as on the X-Y pattern issue.

I understand your point about kids and headphones. I intend to do what someone here on the board advised me earlier, and have the children hold the headphones to one ear, to see if that will work. The younger the child, the harder it will be, but we'll give it a shot!

As for the X-Y matter, thanks for explaining "near coincident". When you say close together as opposed to on top of each other (as you explained is done with SD mics), do you mean that the two B1's would be in a V shape, with the heads of the mics at the apex, but not touching? And the ends with the cords would be spaced out?

Thanks again for all of your help, mgraffeo.

Julia

 

[still4given]

Julia,

I agree with mgraffeo, that the headphone thing is really tough. I would try it though because you will get a much cleaner vocal track to mix with.

This is really a tough one because doing the "groups of 10" even with experienced singers makes it hard to keep everything sinced together.

The way we did our choir's recording is really the easiest and best, soundwise, but you need a way of getting the soundtrack to all of the singers. Our engineer had an FM transmitter and we all wore inexpensive "Walkman" type radios. Very cool idea and it worked great. I'm not sure what the transmitter costs, and it's probably not in your budget right now but if you are going to be doing more of this I would highly recomend looking into getting one.

Anyway back to the issue at hand.

Recording the whole group at once would definately be easier for the kids. The ones who are a little unsure of their part can benifit from those around them who are. The problem is getting the soundtrack to them without feeding too much of it into the vocal track. One good thing about the SM58 is that it has very good rejection of sound from the rear. So, if you place the monitors/PA speakers directly behind the mics the soundtrack that does get into the vocal track might be low enough as to not cause too much problem. I would practice with the kids with the soundtrack at a low level a few times to get them used to hearing themselves more. This may not give you quite as clean of a recording but I believe that once you add the real soundtrack to it , it may be enough to mask the music that bled into the vocal track. The kids will definately sound more like one choir this way. Not to mention this will save you a bunch of time.

Hope this helps

Blessings, Terry

 

[Julia]

To Terry...

Thanks very much, Terry. I appreciate your thoughts, as always.

What I fear in the scenario you've so kindly laid out for me, is that after I record the children singing to orchestration played softly through the monitors, when I then play the orchestration as it is recorded on the master track of my recording unit, the two will not sync up properly. Believe it or not, a millisecond makes a huge difference. I'm afraid this would create a phasing issue, yes...and I do appreciate your thoughts regarding using two SM-58's and being careful to place the monitor(s) centrally located behind them so as to minimize the problem...BUT...the question in my mind remains...

The children would be singing to the orchestration through monitors. Once I try to sinc their voices up with the actual orchestral track on my recorder after recording them, they will have sung to something in a different time, and the two can then not be sync'ed.

Now maybe I have that all wrong...that's CERTAINLY entirely possible. Goodness knows I'm as novice as it gets. But I'm wondering if this could create an issue?

Thanks again, Terry.

Julia

 

[still4given]

My problem here is that I've never used a recorder like yours. So, I have a question. Is it possible to first record the soundtrack to two of the tracks on your recorder and then play/monitor those tracks to the children as you record them so that your in sinc? Surely your recorder will allow for overdubbing. Maybe not?

Let me know

Blessings, Terry

 

[Julia]

Response to Terry...

Thanks, Terry.

Yes, I can try running from "line-out" of my recording unit (which already has the orchestration on two tracks as you've mentioned), directly into a powered amp, and then out of the amp to the monitors.

Someone did mention potential noise problems with powered amps, but I'm guessing that was relative to the earlier question of recording through it.

But yes, I could do what you're suggesting, but I believe there will still be a delay caused by the milliseconds time difference. Am I wrong there?

Thanks very much again, Terry.

Julia

 

[philboyd studge]

Re: mics...

Hi, Friends...


We're having a brand new issue at the moment. I promise not to write 50 posts here about it, but the problem lies in the fact that some of my original orchestrations were recorded too low (not loud enough.) At the beginning of this project I was just learning how to use the BR-1180 and...well...it shows.

Not sure what we'll do about that. He "normalized", but I had a couple of pre-recorded harmonies I had laid down in two places which, now that they're normalized, are distorting like crazy.

This isn't as simple as I thought it would be.

Oh, well...

Hmmm.......that doesn't sound good, how difficult would it be to re record the orchestrations?

Looks like the idea of recording everyone at once is being tossed around...........it's a great idea, not only from a recording standpoint but for logistics. It's going to be very difficult to arrange times for so many sessions with so many kids to be dropped off and picked up, and compete with soccer practice and dance lessons. Also, I think the kids will give a better performance if they all sing at once, it's what they're used to.

still4given's ideas are good.

Just as a reference, when I recorded the school choir a year and a half ago I didn't use any of the 'good stuff' equipment I could have and instead I opted for simpicity and reliability because it was a one shot live recording. The director's backround accompanyment was run through a P.A. board and mixed in with the choir being picked up by a couple of mics with a third mic for narration and soloists. I didn't even use the hard disc recorder, instead I used a mini disc deck plugged into the stereo tape outs on the board. After editing and touching things up on Sound Forge on the computer I was amazed at how good it came out. And the CD's went like hot cakes with no compaints about sound quality. What you're going to get in a controlled enviornment will sound much better.............not to worry.

 

[still4given]

Julia,

Like I said, I haven't used a recorder like yours so I don't know if there is latency in them or not. If so then your task is a little tougher.

I would probably use the mixer that your friend offered the use of and feed the soundtrack into two of the channels and the two mics into another two channels. Get thet best blend you can and then record. The drawback to this is that you will not able to adjust the mix later, as everything will be recorded together.

Are you sure there is a delay in the monitoring on your recorder? That seems like a very bad design. What good would it do to have a multitrack recorder with only two imputs if you can't record the second set of tracks with them being in sinc? I've got to believe you can do this without a delay problem.

I wouldn't worry too much about the quality of the monitors since, hopefully it will not be picked up too much by the mics. I would think any decent PA should work OK. Like I said, keep them as low as you can to minimize it.

Blessings, Terry

 

[Julia]

Response to Terry...

Are you sure there is a delay in the monitoring on your recorder? That seems like a very bad design. What good would it do to have a multitrack recorder with only two imputs if you can't record the second set of tracks with them being in sinc? I've got to believe you can do this without a delay problem.

Thanks, Terry.

No, that wasn't what I meant...I apologize for not expressing myself very well. I don't mean to suggest that there is latency in the recording unit itself...not at all.

What I was concerned about was the delay which will undoubtedly occur from playing the orchestration to the kids while they sing, and THEN sinc'ing THAT up with the actual orchestration I've got on the tracks of the recorder. I'm talking about the delay caused by the music OUTside the recorder.

But perhaps that won't be as much of an issue as I fear.

Thanks again, Terry.

I'm grateful for your thoughts.

Julia

 

[still4given]

Julia,

The only delay I can see happening is the delay caused from the time it takes for the music to get from the speakers to the childrens ears. Unless you have the monitors a long way from them I don't think this will create much of a problem. The reaction time of a childs mind will create a much larger lag than that.

I would keep the monitor as close to the back of the mics as I could this will reduce the lag of any music that is subsequentially recorded.

Blessings, Terry

 

[kid klash]

Hi Julia,

One more thought, since you are definately the adventurous type!

1. Record 15-20 kids at a time with one B1. This part is pretty simple.

2. For monitoring, run your stereo orchestral tracks from your recorder through through a two channel power amp.

3. Connect the poer amp to two decent monitor speakers; CONNECT ONE MONITOR SPEAKER IN PHASE (+ TO +, - TO -); CONNECT THE SECOND MONITOR SPEAKER OUT OF PHASE (+ TO -, - TO +).

4. Place your monitor speakers and your single B1 so that they form an equalateral triangle when viewed above. This means you've got the kids standing ala choir formation (use risers if you've got them); the mic is in front-center of the kids, and the monitors are left and right, in front and to the sides of the mic but to the rear-sides of the kids.

Imagine a triangle where the length of each of the three sides is the same. Put the mic in one of the tree corners pointing into the center of the triangle. Place the monitors in the other two corners, aimed at the mic. fill in bottom 1/3 of the triangle (the section of the triangle between the monitors) with the kids, singing at the mic.

The kids can then hear the orchestral tracks without using headphones; the bleed from the orchestral tracks is non-existant because the monitor signals are out of phase with each other, canceling themselves on the vocal tracks. Do this as many times as you need to, depending on the number of kids recorded at a time and the number of tracks you have.

This works very well, and has been one of the best kept vocal recording secrets for many years. Many recording artists have a problem with "cans" (headphones), so this is a dandy way around it.

 

[Julia]

Uh oh...

Uh oh, kid klash...you just forced me to break my promise of no more questions!

I pretty much understand what you've directed here, and I thank you very much for sharing this with me. There is a part I don't comprehend at all, unfortunately. When you say...

3. Connect the poer amp to two decent monitor speakers; CONNECT ONE MONITOR SPEAKER IN PHASE (+ TO +, - TO -); CONNECT THE SECOND MONITOR SPEAKER OUT OF PHASE (+ TO -, - TO +).

This confuses me.

First, we don't have a power amp, but I do still have use of a powered mixer which I rented for the show itself. Would that work along with the plan you just laid out?

Also, I'm about to call Oregon and order a B1, but I just want to be sure of something...

Would just one be sufficient, or do I really need two for a decent recording? (How many kids would be too many for one mic?)

Also, do I need to buy a shock mount as well?

Thank goodness for credit cards. This is getting to be one expensive little project.

Thanks very much again.

Julia

 

[still4given]

Hi Julia,

I would use two if possible. The coverage will be much greater as well as being able to pan things a little in the recording to give it a better feel when listening to it.

By the way, I just called Music Center Inc. at 800-697-9393 and he told me he has several B1's in stock for $79.

You might want to give them a call as well.

Blessings, Terry

 

[Julia]

Terry...

Thanks, Terry...I appreciate the better pricing of 79.99! Thanks so much for the heads up. The savings will pay for Priority shipping perhaps.

An important question, though...

Do I need TWO B1's to record 10 kids at a time? Two, of course, would mean 5 kids arc'ed around each B1. Is that necessary? I've decided to only record 10 at a time max. As for panning, excellent point, but I'll likely give each group of 10 their own channel, and then can pan the channels thereafter.

So...before I shell out the money for two B1's, I really want to make sure its' worth the additional money. If I need two mics for a good recording, when recording 10 kids at a time, then I will surely buy two. Otherwise, I won't.

Does anyone know if I really need shock mounts? The kids won't be moving...but then again, I've never used a condenser mic before and know nothing about the sensitivity of them.

Music Center, Inc. apparently doesn't carry the shock mounts.

Thanks again.

Julia

 

[Julia]

Oops...

Sorry...it's me again.

I forgot to ask...

In addition to "do I NEED shock mounts", I'd like to know if I need a pop filter, and I'd also like to know if I should use the B1 to record my soloists, or use an SM-58 for them instead?

Thanks again and again...

Julia

 

[mgraffeo]

Shock mounts: they help, but will be expensive (since they don't come with the B1). I'd just use the mic clips, and try to keep the kids from tapping their feet

Soloists: I'd definitely use the B1, unless it's just not working on a particular soloist's voice. Then try the 58.

 

[Julia]

Thanks a million!

Thanks mgraffeo...

If you're still out there, one or two B1's, for 10 kids at a time?

Thanks again!

I'm almost out of your hair!

 

[kid klash]

Hi again,

The power amp in your powered mixer will be fine. Since I'm not able to see the speaker cables you'll be using, I'm not sure how they're terminated. Anyway, there are actually two wires that run to each speaker... one wire carries the signal (+) from the amp to the speaker, the other wire allows the signal to return from the speaker to the amp (-). You could say it's (basically) the same way a lamp works, which is why you'll see two prongs on the end of a lamp plug... one prong (and wire) coming, one prong (and wire) going, although the current running through the lamp cord (and the signal running through the speaker cables) runs back and forth, but that's another story (or book).

So anyway, if the speaker wires have connectors on both ends, it will take a little more work to flip the polarity of one of the cables.

Another thing... whether you use a B1 or your SM-58, I wouldn't cluster the kids directly in front of the mic... I'd have the kids stand back in a row (or rows) maybe 10 feet from the mic so the mic can "see" the group of kids better. You'll get a more cohesive "choir" sound, if that's what you're going for.

Regarding shockmounts : if your floor is concrete and you're certain noboby will touch the mic, stand, or mic cable between the floor and the mic, then you probably don't need the shockmounts at this time. If the floor is wood or any other flexible material, or if the stand will be bumped or touched, buy the shockmounts. They won't help you if someone touches the mic or the cable running between the floor and the mic. LD condenser mics are VERY sensitive and detailed... that's why they're used for mic'ing orchestras and other multipiece conventional groups.

Regarding two mics versus one : one is the easiest to set up. Sound-wise, you'll have multiple mono sources panned to different places. With two mics, it's a little more work setting up two mics, but you'll have REAL stereo sources that will need very little actual panning (other than hard left and hard right), and your "soundstage" will appear much larger and more realistic.

Regarding the pop filters : the B1's come with giant foam slipon pop filters. But if you don't have anyone any closer than 12"-18" as in most choir settings, you won't need them.

Regarding soloist mics : Assuming you'll do your soloists individually, without recording the choir at the same time... If your soloists haven't recorded with LDC mics before, position them where you want them; have them sing straight ahead; position the mic about 6" away from them and about 6" above them, and angle the mic at a 45 degree angle, down towards their mouth. This way, all the plosives will go under the mic, but the mic will pick up all the detail, without restricting the frequency response of the LDC mic. Otherwise, have the soloists move closer to the mic when their part comes up - the distance depends on the vocal strength of the soloist.

One question from me - why don't you record all 170 kids at one time with two mics in a stereo configuration? Much less hassle and fewer tracks are needed.

 

[Julia]

Thank you, kid klash...in response...

Thank you very, very much.

I don't think I'll be able to set up that triangular configuration. It sounds like the way to go...it surely does. But I don't think I can understand the whole polarity/termination business. THe speaker wires we have...well...hehe...all I can tell you is that they have a 1/4" thingie at each end. I think the triangular configuration is over my head...and you can probably see why.

I think I'm going to have to stick with headphones for 10 kids, recording ten kids at one time. I think I'll have to do this, because I understand it best and I've very little time left to study these other wonderful options.

Another thing... whether you use a B1 or your SM-58, I wouldn't cluster the kids directly in front of the mic... I'd have the kids stand back in a row (or rows) maybe 10 feet from the mic so the mic can "see" the group of kids better. You'll get a more cohesive "choir" sound, if that's what you're going for.

Shall I put them on risers?

Regarding two mics versus one : one is the easiest to set up. Sound-wise, you'll have multiple mono sources panned to different places. With two mics, it's a little more work setting up two mics, but you'll have REAL stereo sources that will need very little actual panning (other than hard left and hard right), and your "soundstage" will appear much larger and more realistic.

I'd love to go with the two mics and a "real" stereo image, but I'm afraid I won't set the two mics up correctly, and I'll end up with that "cancelling each other out" problem. Any words of advice there? Just make the V with the two mics close but not touching? It's not that simple, is it?

I can track the various groups on 4-6 tracks and pan them across the "field" that way if need be. ???

If your soloists haven't recorded with LDC mics before, position them where you want them; have them sing straight ahead; position the mic about 6" away from them and about 6" above them, and angle the mic at a 45 degree angle, down towards their mouth.

Thanks. I'm recording the soloists separately. Do general mic stands go up that high, or do I need to buy something special for that height/angle?

Oy. We have a wood stage floor. Hmmm...

I do have another option, that being a SMALL room, wall to wall carpeting, and three out of four walls are cement, one with four windows along it?

Thoughts?

Thank you thank you thank you!

Julia

 

[laptoppop]

Re: Thank you, kid klash...in response...

I think I'm going to have to stick with headphones for 10 kids, recording ten kids at one time. I think I'll have to do this, because I understand it best and I've very little time left to study these other wonderful options.

It is important for you to feel comfortable with whatever technique you use. Headphones, with the kids leaving one ear off so they can hear each other, should be fine.

Shall I put them on risers?

As with the rest of this - pros and cons. Pro: better height management of the kids. Con: One more thing to make noise. I'd probably NOT go with risers, but that would be my call.

I'd love to go with the two mics and a "real" stereo image, but I'm afraid I won't set the two mics up correctly, and I'll end up with that "cancelling each other out" problem. Any words of advice there? Just make the V with the two mics close but not touching? It's not that simple, is it?

I can track the various groups on 4-6 tracks and pan them across the "field" that way if need be. ???

Pretty much that simple. Again, though - go with what you are comfortable with. 17 mono groups (!) panned across the stereo image will sound FINE.

Thanks. I'm recording the soloists separately. Do general mic stands go up that high, or do I need to buy something special for that height/angle?

Almost all general mic stands go up that high easily.

Oy. We have a wood stage floor. Hmmm...

What's wrong with that? Many of the world's top recording studios have wood floors - they give a nice warm sound. If you think it echos too much, put a throw rug on it.

I do have another option, that being a SMALL room, wall to wall carpeting, and three out of four walls are cement, one with four windows along it?

Actually, that room sounds like echo city - and would not be the room I'd choose to record the soloists in. You might try going into that room and clapping your hands sharply -- I'm willing to bet a smile that you'll hear reflections.

Bottom line - its going to be fine. Its obvious you really care about the quality and thats great. On the other hand....remember the movie/play "The Music Man"? The parents just want something that documents their kids are in it. I hope you are able to put in liner notes with every kids name, spelled correctly as much as possible. Something that the parents can point to that says THEIR kid was in the production.

In terms of duplicating the disks -- if it goes too slowly, you can buy a 40X CD burner for as low as $40. these days. Just a thought.

Good luck, and have fun!
-lee-