Finally ready to record 170 children, in groups of 10...mic question remains. Advice?

[Julia]

mgraffeo...

Julia,


1)pick up a B1, not worrying about the cardioid pattern (you could slightly arc the kids, to help reduce the effect you are worried about). The increased sensitivity of a condenser mic will be a noticeable improvement for you. Use 1 mic per group, and use the pan feature during mixing to create a well layered soundstage.

Can I get adequate sound with a single B1 if I use 10-11 kids in a group, or should I opt for the two B1's, placing 5-6 kids at each?



2) use the SM-58's you've got, and be willing to use compression/ gain / noise gates to up the signal to noise ratio. This is certainly the cheaper alternative, and means you keep working with equipment you're comfortable with.[/QUOTE]

I hear you, and I appreciate the wisdom in the suggestion. Unfortunately, I'm not comfortable with compression/gain/noise gates either, unless you're simply referring to selecting a pre-set COSM vocal effect on the BR-1180 (some of which do include compression) and simply recording using one of those pre-sets.

You (and philboyd) also make an excellent point about using what little technology we've currently got, but I'm really concerned about getting a good recording of so many children (5-6 around each mic) using dynamic mics like the SM-58. And since I'll be recording these children every now and again, I thought an investment in either 1 or 2 B1's...or a single B3 (whichever is the better option for my uses) might be prudent, right from the start.

Somewhere in the back of my mind is the thought that dynamic mics are best used with the vocalist right smack on top of it, and are ill-suited for recording, and even more ill-suited for recording more than one vocalist at a time.

Yours' are all excellent suggestions, and I thank you very much for taking the time to offer this guidance...I need to make a decision today, and either have a mic/some mics shipped overnight or priority...or use what we've got and call it good.

Along with the issues involved in the media, graphics, etc...there's so much to consider, think about, and do!

Thanks again.

Julia

 

[Julia]

treeline...

The B3 will give you more versatility, but a pair of B1s will catch the kids on each side, and the B1 is just impossible to beat for the money. I also think kid klash's advice on the preamp is really good; the audio buddy has a reputation for being clean, quiet and simple. And not pricey. It has two channels.

Thank you very much, treeline. I appreciate your input very much.

I still cannot understand the need for a pre-amp. I have phantom power and built-in pre-amps in the BR-1180. I know they're not the best pre-amps made, but they should rival those in the Audio Buddy or any other inexpensive pre-amp I've been told, so why would I need another pre-amp?

By the way...on the B3 vs. B1...thank you for your point. Could you tell me if you were referring to my getting ONE B1, and then I'd be able to catch 10-11 kids with just one, or were you suggesting I purchase two B1's, instead of encircling a B3 with the children?

Thanks very much for your input.

Julia

 

[Julia]

maskedman...

the best deal i have gotten on blank cdr's is a spindal of 100 ( imation brand)at best buy for $7.99 after rebate at best buy.

That is a really super deal, but those don't come with jewel cases, right? I'd need those as well. Just wondering if you know of any delicious deals on those too?

Thanks again for all of your help. You've all been so kind to try to help guide me along in this process...not to mention your incredible patience with my innumerable questions!

Thanks.

Julia

 

[still4given]

Julia,

From what I've read, I don't have a B3, in cardiod mode the B3 is no better than the B1. Unless you are in a really good room, it is almost always better to record vocals with cardiod mics. They reject sounds from the rear so you don't get a lot of out of phase sound that is bouncing around the room. We just made a Christmas CD at our church with our choir of about 65 people. The whole thing was recorded with two AKG 414 mics set on cardiod. You can hear every voice. The mics were set on a double mount and facing a little less than 90 Deg. apart. The stereo image was so good that the engineer could come out from the remote room where he was sitting and walk right to the person who's voice was too loud.

The only problem I see with you getting the B1's is time. I don't believe you can just go to a store and buy them. You have to order them, and this time of year, mail moves slowly. I guess you could pay they extra dough and have them over nighted to be sure.

There is also the option of renting mics. You could rent expensive mics cheaper than buying but hten of course you wouldn't have them for the next outing.

To be honest, I really believe you can do this with the Sm58's. If I were you I would just set up your rig in the next day or two, get a few kids together and try it. Use two mics, set them right next to each other facing outward aproximately 60% - 90% from each other, have the kids stand in a semi-circle and give it a shot. Since yo are not running any sound track through monitors, you should be able to get plenty of gain out of your 58's. I probably would remove the ball from them. You'd be surprised how many pro recordings have been made over the years with SM57 mics, which is pretty much identical to an SM58 with the ball removed.

Blessings, Terry

 

[Julia]

To Terry...

Dear Terry,

Thank you SO, SO much for these thoughts.

Last night I had another thought...I would love your input on it if you would have the time to comment even briefly...

I thought maybe I should use a mixer, set up one borrowed SM-58 dynamic PER CHILD (10 at a time, but each gets his/her own mic) and then use the mixer as a line-out source, into my BR-1180 to record the kids.

Good? Bad? Ugly?

Your idea sounds so much easier! thanks so much, too, for your final point. I had no idea that pro recordings were ever done using a simple Shure dynamic.

The one difference between your situation and mine is that you were working with a choir of adults in which everyone has the ability to carry a tune! I have children here (from 4 to 12), some of whom can, and others who cannot. The other thing the mixer idea would do is enable me to cut out any child whose voice in the mix is...well...not so good, tone-wise.

Thanks again.

Blessings to you as well...

Julia

 

[still4given]

There are a couple of problems with the mixer idea. Or at least with the 10 mic idea. The problem with using multiple mics is phase problems and mic technique problems. In order for you to record with that many mics you will have to have the mics very close to each singer. Otherwise they will be picking up the other singers as well. The farther away each singer is from each individual mic the worse the phasing, or delay is going to be. You will also have a problem with mic technique of inexperienced singers. I really can't see this working out for you. Also, one of the things that adds to the charm of a childrens choir is that some of them don't sing all that well. If they are all "on", they end up sounding like the Mormon Tab Choir. Not that that is bad, just not very "childlike".

Anyway, like I said. Before you spend a lot of money, do a trial run with what you have. I think you'll be surprized.

Also, don't forget what I said about having them only wear the headphones on one ear. Very Important!

Blessings, Terry

 

[philboyd studge]

Anyway, like I said. Before you spend a lot of money, do a trial run with what you have. I think you'll be surprized.

Also, don't forget what I said about having them only wear the headphones on one ear. Very Important!

Blessings, Terry [/B]

Agreed, especially the headphones.

Before I got into music I was a drag racer. We had an expression - 'Run what you brung', which meant to stop thinking about what you could have done or last minute changes and get the thing off the trailer and qualify.

 

[jet-rocker]

Getting there. I'd say one B-1 or B-3 or ECM8000, groups of ten in the room with the high ceiling.....

Doing that many rounds of kids could cause some issuses. But if you need to you can always use four or five groups of ten and say that you included everyone.

-J

 

[Julia]

Believe it or not...

I just called a guy around here who has a recording studio in his home. I told him what I was about to do, and what my options were.

Of all my current options, (ordered one or two condensers or using simply 2 dynamic mics to record many kids at once), he suggested that the idea of using a mixer would be best. I would appreciate thoughts on this, but here's what he said...

He offered to come over and set up a 14-channel mixing board, my headphone amp with extensions, set 10 Shure SM-58's and 57's on ten mic stands across the stage, stand one child directly in front of each mic, pop one ear of the headphones on each child, and have them sing. (We'll close the curtain in front of them as well as the curtain behind them.)

I asked about echo/delay problems, (because I hadn't read the post using the term "phasing" yet!), and he said there shouldn't be any problem with that as each child will be confined, straight up, to one mic. He said sure there will be some bleed, but that it should not affect the recording negatively. He even said he'd put up a couple of overheads as well if I wanted, but I don't know enough about the implications to comment on that.

Is all of this correct and capable of producing a decent sound overall?

He can't stay around for the two days it will take to do the recording, but said he'd be happy to loan us some gear and set me all up. Said he heard the show was absolutely beautiful and would like to help us get a decent recording.

Thoughts? Shall I go ahead?

 

[still4given]

Ok, as far as using the ten mics, I'd say give it a try. As long as the kids are far enough apart to avoid too much "bleed" and the kid is not too close to the mic it will probably work. The draw backs to this are, in my estimation, lack of direction to the kids, (it will be really tough for all of them to see the director), for some this is vital. Hearing each other will be tougher, making it harder to blend and stay on pitch. Of course if you are using a mixer, it would be possible to run the voices being recorded into the monitors along with the sound track. That would help. They could even wear both sides of the head phones in that case.
My main concern with this idea is mic technique. Most kids, (and a lot adults), have very poor mic technique. The farther you can get them away from the mic, the less impact that will have on the recording. The problem there is that the farther they stand from the mic, the more gain that is needed and the more likelyhood of picking up the other singers. You also lose some of the "choir" sound when everyone is on their own mic.

All you can do is try it. I still think you should try the simpler thig first. That is with the two 58/57's and the kids in a semi-circle. I would at least give that a try. You would only need to get a few kids together for that and wouldn't need to set up a mixer and all.

Either way, I hope you have a wonderful time with this.

Blessings, Terry

 

[philboyd studge]

Julia,

I think two mics would be better than ten, it'll be much harder to blend that way. Much easier to have a too loud singer take a step back. Still, have the guy come over (bring the 57's) and help out with the set up and the first group, his help will be envaluable.

 

[maskedman72]

i wouldnt do 10 mics. id do your original thought. also since you dont have a g.c. near you can always order a few mics from m.f. or sweetwater and return the ones you dont like without a hassle. good luck!

 

[mgraffeo]

Julia,

at this point, you are getting down to preference. It will be a lot more work if you're going to use 10 mics (live riding of faders, or submixing between each session). However, if you're willing to do that, and have the experience with the mixer and bouncing tracks on the Boss unit, then give it a whirl. It sounds like the local dude could be a great resource for you.

On the other hand, if it's going to be primarily up to you, I believe in the KISS principle (Keep It Simple...) One or two mics in front of the kids will definitely yield acceptable results. Just a question of working with Kid/ Mic placement to get the best quality.

At this point, I'm sure you'll get results you're happy with either way, so flip a coin and run with it! Good luck!!!

-MG

 

[still4given]

In regards to the returning mics. First of all purchasing a mic with the intent of using it and then returning it is certainly a questionable practice. Secondly, most stores will not alow the return of mics. Health laws I think. I'm not saying that returning a piece of equipment because it doesn't live up to what is was advertized to do is wrong. I'm talking about using a store to get free rental. How would you like to buy what you thought was a new mic, only to find out someone else had been sneezing all over it?

My $.02

Blessings, Terry

 

[Julia]

mics...

Hi, Friends...

Not to worry...I've no intention of pretending to buy a mic, using it for this project, and then returning it.

At this point, my options are boiled down to the 10-mic idea, which everyone here seems to discourage, though this guy says he's done it before and it will work, or having him hook up a few condensers and record that way. I'm not sure what we'll do.

We're having a brand new issue at the moment. I promise not to write 50 posts here about it, but the problem lies in the fact that some of my original orchestrations were recorded too low (not loud enough.) At the beginning of this project I was just learning how to use the BR-1180 and...well...it shows.

Not sure what we'll do about that. He "normalized", but I had a couple of pre-recorded harmonies I had laid down in two places which, now that they're normalized, are distorting like crazy.

This isn't as simple as I thought it would be.

Oh, well...

 

[kid klash]

Hi there,

More free advice (just what you need!)

I also agree with the others that suggest you DON'T do the 10 mic setup. Kids move around too much; your room will be your enemy, phase-wise, with 10 mics, and you'll be at the mercy of your home recordist friend (who may or may not have any more experience than you do).

So, since your recorder will record two tracks at a time, and since two channels of the recorder have mic preamps and phantom voltage, I'd still suggest one of the following :

A) One B1 in front of 10 kids at a time, going into one channel of your recorder at a time. During mixing, pan to taste.

B) Two B1s in a stereo configuration, in front of 20 kids at a time, going into two channels at the same time. During mixing, mix and pan the four stereo pairs to taste.

Either way, the LD condensers will give you an extremely detailed recording compared to using a bunch of 58s. Also, you'll have one or two mics that you can use on many more sources in the future than you would if you only have a 58. Don't get me wrong... the 58 is a GREAT live performance vocal mic when used on the right vocalist, but if you plan to record a lot of choirs, you'll get way more mileage out of the B1.

And if you're satisfied with the sound of your onboard preamps, don't spend the money on a discreet preamp.

Regarding duplication, why don't you just farm it out? In Portland Oregon, you can get small quantities of CDRs duplicated on Mitsui CDRs with graphics/text printed on the CDR (one color) in a real jewel case for $3-$5 each, depending on the quantity. I'm sure there's a duplication house near you.

Since you're doing this out of the kindness of your heart with all proceeds going towards the betterment of the kids (right?), you should be able to price them at $10 or less and still add some money to the kid's betterment fund.

Oh yeah... one other small detail... don't forget to pay for the use of the songs you record... the Harry Fox Agency can negotiate the fees for you.

Peace.

 

[Julia]

Response to kid klash...

Hey, thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate them all very much. I wanted to respond to a few things, if I may...

First, although I had hoped to have some, the B1's are simply not obtainable. I've checked wherever I can find them, and there not in stock anywhere...very backordered, well into January, unfortunately. Frankly, though, after all I've read here and all the thinking I've done of late, I think I should ultimately invest in a pair of those for future kiddo recordings.

Now...I would very much like to also know one other thing...if I eventually can buy a couple of B1's, will they also be well suited for recording soloists by any chance?

You wrote:

And if you're satisfied with the sound of your onboard preamps, don't spend the money on a discreet preamp.

Well, to be honest, I'm satisfied with them only because I've no earthly idea what a pre-amp is or does, and therefore what I've got will have to suffice for now. I couldn't possibly know where to begin shopping for such a thing.

Since you're doing this out of the kindness of your heart with all proceeds going towards the betterment of the kids (right?),

Absolutely. 100%. As a matter of fact, this is costing me a considerable amount of money. It's a donation, as was the whole show. To be honest, it's a tad more expensive than I'd bargained for, but I offered, and thus I will produce...somehow.

Oh yeah... one other small detail... don't forget to pay for the use of the songs you record... the Harry Fox Agency can negotiate the fees for you.

Thank you very much for this advice, but this program was an all-original script written by me, including NINE songs, all written by me, and all-original (of course) orchestration...all done by me. So I don't have to pay (anymore than that!) for the songs I'm recording. I sure wish someone would pay me, though!

Thanks again, kid klash. I appreciate any and all advice, believe me...more than I can say.

Julia

 

[kid klash]

Julia,

If you really want the B1's, call Curt (the owner) at Brownell's Music in Portland at (503) 231-7866... they have them in stock at $89 each plus shipping.

Glad to hear about your generousity... bless you.

Also glad to hear about your own compositions!

 

[Julia]

B1's in stock???

Wow!

Thanks, kid klash! I couldn't find them in stock ANYWHERE! I've also read that others are looking for C1's and B3's as well...nobody can seem to find them, other than to backorder them into Jan.-Feb.

Thanks again!

Julia

 

[Julia]

One last question...I PROMISE!

Guys, I'm really sorry to burden you with yet another question, but I'd appreciate your opinions and expertise on this one final matter, and then I'll let the thread drop, I promise. I won't ask anymore questions...I've appreciated every ounce of guidance, believe me.

You already know my plan about recording 10 kids at a time, with headphones, into my BR-1180CD recording unit, and then overdubbing them with the next group of ten.

I've yet to decide (I will this afternoon) whether I'd do this with 10 SM-58's and a mixer (sounds like a VERY BAD plan from all I've read here), or with simply my two SM-58's into the recorder, OR using two B1's or similar as condensers in X-Y...(I guess I'd need to buy shockmounts for this option as well?)

...and now I have a final option to consider and would love to know how you'd vote on these options...

There's a recording engineer in the area who says that the best thing to do is to record the children in the larger groups of 20-40, WITHOUT headphones, playing the pre-recorded orchestration through the PA, and pointing a microphone at one of those speakers to pick up the orchestration while at the same time recording the children singing to it.

Of course, I doubt this would then sync up with my mastered recording, and then how would I put the soloists down on each his/her own track, etc. I think it presents new issues, not the least of which could be phasing issues, but I wanted to run it by this group and get a few votes either way.

I apologize if I just broke some kind of board law by posting this question since months ago I asked it (in another way on another thread), but now I'm kind of confused, and wanted to get this all together today.

Thank you all very much for all of your help. I'll be quiet here now.

Thanks again. You've all been very kind to me.

Julia