Final Mix Volume Not Hot Enough

[Nate74]

I have been mixing in Cakewalk Home Studio XL for about two years now and am very pleased with the results I've been getting. I've recorded mostly solo guitar/vocals, 4 piece blues/rock bands (mostly my own) a couple piano/female vox projects and even helped a neighbor's kid put together a clarinet audition CD for college music scholarships.

But when I finish a mix, burn it to CD and listen to it in other systems, it's never quite as loud as a commercial disk. But as I watch the VU meter on my master mix window, it seems to be usually right around digital zero.

I'm planning on recording and mixing my new band's demo in about two weeks and we weren't planning on sending it off to be mastered, so it will be up to me to get it ready for sending out to clubs etc.

Can I get that volume level up closer to that of a commercial CD with my current software? What are the strategies/techniques to do that? Or do I need a mastering software?

Any and all input would be great.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Massive Master]

There are about 100 posts in the last week that deal with this very issue.

Short story - You could limit it.

Short version of the longer story - Don't expect the same results you'd get from commercial recordings that have been professionally tracked, mixed and mastered.

 

[Ford Van]

There are about 100 posts in the last week that deal with this very issue.

Short story - You could limit it.

Short version of the longer story - Don't expect the same results you'd get from commercial recordings that have been professionally tracked, mixed and mastered.

That is useful information!

 

[Farview]

This question gets answered twice a week around here.

You need a limiter. (not just a compressor with a high ratio) The idea is to get the average level up, the peak level has nothing to do with the volume that you hear. You need to use the limiter to get the average volume closer to the peak.

Do a search on mastering in this forum, you will find more info than you can read in a week.

 

[Nate74]

This question gets answered twice a week around here.

I figured it did, but searches for "CD level," "mastering," "commercial volume level," etc. got me all sorts of unrelated results. (Maybe since I just added these terms to this post the next poor guy won't have the same problems I did when search on this ) And yes it was certainly "more info than you can read in a week."

Maybe if the boss doesn't show up today, I'll dive back in to all those results...

I have recently been using the Kjaerhus Audio Classic Limiter when I edit my 2-track mixes. It's certainly helped, maybe I'll keep messing with it and see if the results improve. Any other of the freebie VSTs out there you all might recommend?

 

[Farview]

That limiter should do it for you. You may need to EQ out some of the low end in the instruments that don't need it, etc...

Some mixes can't get that loud before they fall apart. You have to be very careful to piece your mix together in a way that will stand up to that kind of limiting. It's not always as easy as slapping a limiter on it, you have to be working toward that goal from the recording stage, through the mixing and the mastering.

 

[Nate74]

That limiter should do it for you. You may need to EQ out some of the low end in the instruments that don't need it, etc...

Some mixes can't get that loud before they fall apart. You have to be very careful to piece your mix together in a way that will stand up to that kind of limiting. It's not always as easy as slapping a limiter on it, you have to be working toward that goal from the recording stage, through the mixing and the mastering.

Excellent. I guess as a hobbiest (as I'm guessing we almost all are here) it's only experience that will help me.

But now that I know I need to understand the process of limiting better, I have some reading to do. And of course, the boss didn't show up for the "Saturday Session" he planned... I'll be back in bad by 9am

 

[LogicDeLuxe]

First of all, watch this demo linked in my signatur. Then think again, do you want it have compressed to death (like too many commercial CDs are) or do you prefer a recording sounding well?

 

[Nate74]

First of all, watch this demo linked in my signatur. Then think again, do you want it have compressed to death (like too many commercial CDs are) or do you prefer a recording sounding well?

Wow! I don't know if I whole heartedly agree 100% or not, but this clip should be a "must see" for every home recordist and probably every musician and music fan out there.

As I've tried various amounts of limiting with a few mixes that I'm quite happy with I'd be lying if I said I didn't notice the punch (drums especially) lacking from the first versions of the mixes.

I may find a happy medium but I'll tell you what that clip was worth about 1000 times what I paid for it and for that I do thank you.

 

[tkingen]

One method is to use a compressor in conjunction with a limiter. Compress just a little but use the makeup gain to bring the volume up. Then use the limiter to tame the remaining peaks and nudge the volume up a smidgen more. Give it a try!

 

[danny.guitar]

First of all, watch this demo linked in my signatur. Then think again, do you want it have compressed to death (like too many commercial CDs are) or do you prefer a recording sounding well?

Watched the video. I was already well aware of the "Loudness Wars" but it helps to hear the effects in action.

Nice video.

 

[LogicDeLuxe]

As I've tried various amounts of limiting with a few mixes that I'm quite happy with

Some amount of processing should not hurt. With most kinds of music, limiting to -14 dBFS RMS sine works pretty well. And always compare to the unprocessed mix at the same RMS.

 

[ez_willis]

You need a limiter.

I have a stand-alone cd recorder that I burn to. If the mix isn't as loud as I'd like after burning to disc, I run it from a second cd player, back through my tm-d1000 set at 16 bit 44.1kHz, bring the volume up, then record it to another disc.

It works for me. I'm sure there are pitfalls(maybe), but it works.

 

[Farview]

I have a stand-alone cd recorder that I burn to. If the mix isn't as loud as I'd like after burning to disc, I run it from a second cd player, back through my tm-d1000 set at 16 bit 44.1kHz, bring the volume up, then record it to another disc.

It works for me. I'm sure there are pitfalls(maybe), but it works.

The pitfall is that you are distorting the input of the CD burner. You're just clipping it.

You need to put a limiter plugin on the output of the DAW to get the average volume up.

 

[ez_willis]

The pitfall is that you are distorting the input of the CD burner. You're just clipping it.

No I'm not.

I am manually limitting the level before it clips.

Sometimes it's difficult(for me ) to get 24 tracks to set right with each other and stay below point of clipping, but still be comparable in volume(relatively) to a commercial cd, so in essence I'm bouncing them down to two tracks then bringing the volume up from there, slightly.

Or maybe I'm not totally clear on digital converters yet. When the input is "distorting", or "clipping", it produces a really loud screech like a boatload of nails on a chalkboard combined with yappity crack bitches on helium.

Digital clipping is black and white, no? It either is or it isn't clipping. There's no in between where you think you might be hearing it clip. It's either clipping and you really know it or it isn't. Is that correct?

 

[Farview]

I am manually limitting the level before it clips.

With what limiter? If you are just taking a CD that has peaks at 0dbFS and turning up the volume out of one set of converters into another set, you are clipping something.

If you are at the ceiling and you turn it up, you clip.

Without some sort of limiter or compressor to bring the peak and rms level closer together, you must be clipping off the peaks at the converters.

 

[IronFlippy]

A limiter brings all of the audio up closer to the highest peaks. Say you have two drum hits, one extremely soft and the other really loud. When you apply a limiter, it brings the softer hit closer to the loud one, reducing the contrast between the hits. See how terrible this is for music?

What you're doing, ez, is just increasing the volume which brings every part of the track up the same. It wouldn't be any different than raising the gain in your DAW. If it would clip raising the gain there, then it would also clip when you raise the volume on the CD player. Digital distortion is going to be there, but if the distorted area is small, you probably won't notice it. And yes, digital distortion is either there or it's not, no in between.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here anywhere. This is what I know to the best of my knowledge.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Digital clipping is black and white, no? It either is or it isn't clipping. There's no in between where you think you might be hearing it clip. It's either clipping and you really know it or it isn't. Is that correct?

That's a real can of worms you can open with that question. The short answer is no, it's not quite that simple.

How much clipping is audible and how much isn't is a subject of debate, but it's fairly well agreed amongst those who's opinions matter that it takes somewhere around 5-8 consecutive clipped samples at 44.1kHz before the distortion becomes audible to the average ear. Where the problem gets smeared a bit is that unless one is using studio grade meters, one is not sure just how the clip light on their digital meters is calibrated. Some are set to show a clip as soon as one sample goes to 0dB. Others are set to show it only after x number of consecutive 0dB samples. With studio-grade meters (or something like Nichol's Inspector plug), one can specifically set the number of consecutive samples required before a clip is indicated. Personally I'd prefer 3 or less, just to be on the safe side and keep all clipping out.

G.

 

[LogicDeLuxe]

When clipping you should be aware of intersample overs, which occour dring oversampling/upsampling, and the effects vary much on different DACs. A good reason not to clip in the first place.

 

[masteringhouse]

When clipping you should be aware of intersample overs, which occour dring oversampling/upsampling, and the effects vary much on different DACs. A good reason not to clip in the first place.

But won't intersample peaks still happen when reconstructing hyper-limited/compressed audio?

Another leading question:

If you run audio completely digitally to a fixed bit processor, raise the level into clipping, then reduce the overall volume down to say -.5 dBFS, how is this different than brickwall limiting with an overall level of -.5 dBFS?