Favorite Out of Key Chords

  • Thread starter Thread starter powderfinger
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Come on guys! Give us more substitutions.

I love this stuff. And I'm pretty good too I guess. :D
I told you I was smart. :cool:
 
Roel said:
Come on guys! Give us more substitutions.

I love this stuff. And I'm pretty good too I guess. :D
I told you I was smart. :cool:
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heheh, I'll outsmart you on this one bro:) lol.

Well, together as the Belgian theory theme on this board no-one will outsmart us:p
 
BrettB said:
heheh, I'll outsmart you on this one bro:) lol.

Well, together as the Belgian theory theme on this board no-one will outsmart us:p
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Just give me another year. If I get a chance to follow the jazztheory course too, nobody can stop me. I'll outsmart everyone here. HA! :cool:

But, for the moment, I'd be glad to team up with you. So now let's just wait for our next challenge eh? Com'on you silly americans! HA! Show us how 'smart' you really are. Moehahahahahah!
 
I was just kidding, You'll outsmart me quickly I'm afraid:).

Wasn't kidding about the Americans, who are pretending this thread doesn't exists. Come on fellas, try us:p
 
One more thing about that bIImaj7... it can be used as a delayed resolution to the I chord as in II-7...V7...bIImaj7...I. I know thats not how I initially represented it but I know thats how I first learned about it. The maj7 tone of the bIImaj7 chord is the same as the tonic so melodically it serves as a target chord, but the other chord tones add tension resolving to the I (or I6 is nice).

Anyway, fun thread.

Jon
 
One more thing about that bIImaj7... it can be used as a delayed resolution to the I chord as in II-7...V7...bIImaj7...I. I know thats not how I initially represented it but I know thats how I first learned about it. The maj7 tone of the bIImaj7 chord is the same as the tonic so melodically it serves as a target chord, but the other chord tones add tension resolving to the I (or I6 is nice).

Anyway, fun thread.

Jon
 
jjt, roel means the same with his post about the napolitanian sixth, just put in another way.

Keep those chords coming!
 
I think he meant with a pedal tone, a tone you keep during several chord changes, for example a chord sequence that keeps the same bass not, like the simple most common example C F/C G/C.
 
BrettB said:
jjt, roel means the same with his post about the napolitanian sixth, just put in another way.

Keep those chords coming!
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In the progression II-7...V7...bIImaj7...I, he goes from V7 to the bIImaj7 chord. Thus going from a dominant to a subdominant chord if we use the naepolitan sixth-explanation. Classically that's VERY VERY wrong. :D I don't know how common this is in jazz (I suppose not all that common either), so I think part of the explanation would have to do with the tritone-substitution too. I gotta try it and hear it really before I can comment on this. This is really interesting.

Here's the secret tom waits chord progression :eek: (for some of his old stuff anyway.): I III7 vi #IVdim V I ;)
 
You're right about the pedal tones by the way. It's a note that stays in every chord. The most common thing is to have it in the bass, but that's not always the case.

The cool thing about it is that it gives some kind of continuity to the progression, allowing more uncommon changes to happen without the progression sounding to far out... And it can be used very effectivelly to give a spiritual-kinda hypnotizing effect. I love it. There's a box-set of Keith Jarrett live at the village vanguard. On one of the CD's he ends a song in a simple progression of 2 chords, Dm7 and G7, with the D as a pedal. It's in both chords, so that's pretty easy, but the way he plays and uses it. Waw. He's actually playing that D on every beat, for over 10 minutes in a row. Awesome...
 
Roel said:



Here's the secret tom waits chord progression :eek: (for some of his old stuff anyway.): I III7 vi #IVdim V I ;)
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finally, the first diminished chord that has to be explained!:)

the first chords we have allready explained: the III7 is a secondary dominant.

The #VI is a hidden dominant, it is actually related to II7b9.

Suppose this progression is in C, than we have F#dim resolving to G. If you look at the notes of F#dim (f#, a, c, eb(d#)) you notice they are the same notes as D7b9, instead of the root note d.

Also when you hear it you will experience this diminished as dominant. It is always a good subsitue for a regular secondary dominant in a more jazzy peice, it can work great, like good ol' Tom Waits let's us hear. So when you got a diminished resolving halve a tone higher, it is as good as always a hidden dominant.


Pedal notes really can create lots of tension. Like you said they are often used in the bass, but when you experience with a high voicing pedal note you can get cool results. Keith Jarret.. my girlfriend loves that stuff:).

Btw, going from a dominant to a subdominant isn't that unusuale in jazz, the bII maj7 I didn't see that much though. I'll ask my teacher again within a few weeks, but I remember he explained it a while ago with the napotalian sixth, so he's just gonnan wank I should've have listened better:D
 
Just tell your jazzteacher that one of your classically educated friends thought of it as kinda strange in this progression. Just wait untill I've heard it. Hearing it can explain alot.

Keith Jarrett.. my girlfriend loves that stuff.
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Well... The girl I would want to be my girlfriend likes it alot too.... Sigh. :(

The #IVdim is indeed related to II7b9. It's actually the chord on the 7th of the harmonic minor scale. So in C minor, you'd get b, d, f and a flat. So, it's kindof a secondary dominant taken from the minor scale. (the chord on the 7th is also a dominant chord. It can be seen as a rootless V-chord too...)
 
yeps, the b9 is in fact a minor tension.

Damn this thread is good, I'll quickly rate it to get some more people in here. Chickens:D. Afraid Roel and I will outsmart you :p
 
Roel said:
I just thought of an explanation of the flat majII7....

Maybe think of it as the Napolitan sixth in it's non inverted form (not the common second inversion), and with leaving out the V in the progression? Or consider it as a plagal cadence? (Never considered using the Napolitan sixth in a plagal cadence, but I guess that can be done?)
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Thought I'd stop by and see what's going on.
A very interesting thread. Lots of meat in here.

I'd like to comment on something Roel mentioned, about the Neapolitan 6th.
I'll try to say what I know about it. I'm not schooled in theory like Roel or BrettB so my choice of wording may not be exact. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The Neapolitan 6th usually resides in the minor mode.
Built from the lower 2nd scale degree 1st inversion it is a major triad. A sweet little chormatic chord.

When found in a minor key, the V is ie: Emaj E/G#/B and the bII is Bbmaj D#/F#/Bb resolving up to E, F# upto G# and Bb to B.
Also used as a Major7, dom7, minor and +6th chords.


I hope that's close to reality.
Good to see ya, Roel, BrettB.

I'm gonna have to pop in a bit more often........
 
Good to hear from you again man!

It's close... :)

The V chord is mostly notated as E7, instead of Emaj. When using just 3 note chords it don't matter, but the dominant chord needs a minor 7th.

The IIb chord of A minor is indeed Bbmaj, but you got the notes wrong. :) It's D/F/Bb. No sharps there mister. :p The D can be kept right there, turning into the minor 7th of E7, F resolves to E, and Bb to B. I think. Can't really tell it without a keyboard. Haven't been to devoted to it the last months. I figured I'd get enough starting from next week...
 
nice to see you again badgas, sorry didn't reply earlier, I was away for a couple of days.


About your post, I can just double what Roel said. Thx for joining this thread. Finally an american who dare to enter this thread:p.
 
Ahhhhhh..... I love it when I read shit that I barely understand..... yet!:D

barefoot
 
First.....

I play a D....

Then......

I play a C.........


and for the Grande finale.........

a GEEE :D

Howz that fer theory?? :D
 
joro said:
First.....

I play a D....

Then......

I play a C.........


and for the Grande finale.........

a GEEE :D

Howz that fer theory?? :D
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That's actually pretty bad... It's a V-IV-I sequence... You should play the C first, then the D if you wanna end on G!

C

*takes breath*

D

*takes breath*

GEE-GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
 
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