experience?

iLogical

a member member
all u "experienced" people are talking about "experience"... but what does that mean? for loads of beginners MT experience is a strange mysterious accomplishment which only happens by making some mental leap and suddenly knowing loads of stuff.
I know that isn't the case but I'm still not clear on the best method of getting there.

as a musician (for 13 yrs) i know it takes time to become wise about things but the basics shouldn't. there has to be somwhere to start!

what is the best way? - should we do and MT Alevel or Btec diploma and then on to some related degree or get a few weeks work experience in a pro studio?

how did u guys do it?

or am i really talking out my rs and u need to do it yourself for a few years before u really start to get it?

cheers for any advice :)
 
You gain experience by doing whatever it is that you're trying to learn.

If it's riding a bike, you ride the bike.

If it's writing poetry, you write poetry.

If it's learning to play an instrument, you play the instrument.

If it's synchronized swimming, gosh darnit you find a bunch of friends and synchronize till your arms fall off.

If it's learning to record, mix, master, etc...you record, mix and master.

That is, of course, a drastically oversimplified overview of the process, but I think it's important because there are a lot of people who don't do it. They read about it. They talk about it. They think about it...but they don't actually do any of it.

The second part of that is whether or not you've got someone who is already experienced to show you some of the things that they've learned through the years. You can certainly go it alone, but it will take you longer to learn the same lessons that you might pick up from working with an experienced person. On the other hand there are examples of self taught professionals in almost every field (though they usually have a very high sense of personal motivation).

In the audio engineering world that means finding someone to work with. Usually that means with an apprenticeship of some kind in a studio. And the only way to find out if that's possible is to ask.

Another option you mentioned is to go to school for it. Certainly a viable option, usually a relatively expensive option, and an option that can have very varied results. In theory this should give you access to experienced teachers. The same as any other schooling.

Largely the one thing that's most important regardless of how you choose to gain experience is how open minded you are (listen to the people that DO know), how motivated you are, and how patient you are.
 
I subscribe to the "look under every stone" method.

The fastest way of learning how to do anything is to find someone who can do it and ask them. It sounds simple, and in a way it is. The hardest part is finding people who can actually do what you're looking for.

You can literally make a spaceship with that method. What's cool too, is that for the most part the people who are really good at things aren't doing it for the money but for passion, so when you show them you have passion for it they often get excited and want to help you. That's what I've found anyways.

Be prepared though - I've found that much (maybe most) of what we are told is not true.
 
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Ya know, every person is different. I do not have the ability to intern at a commercial studio or go to a school, so I've got to do it all myself. Read, surf, do. I garnered my experience by solving my own problems. Started with getting my mixes to translate to other audio systems, then it was drums, bass, vocals, etc. Now I'm working on better songwriting and arrangements. I've been writing and recording in earnest for about 3 or 4 years. I'm getting to closer to what I want, but still have a long ways to go.

How would you get experience?? Your situation is different from others, so no one can really tell you how YOU should get experience. Most everyone can tell you to learn and practice what you learn, but exactly how you do that is deteremined by you. School? Internship? Home Studio?

This is a home recording site, so that's what most of us do here. Most of us work full time, home owners, familial responsibilities, etc., so we set up shop in a spare room and work at it at night and on weekends.

Starting out, there are major hurdles to overcome and a STEEP learning curve. But as you learn more and practice, you gain the experience you need to achieve what you want.

Am I rambling on?? Don't mean to ramble on.... :rolleyes: :)
 
As Nike say: Just do it!

That's pretty much the winning answer as far as getting experience in doing something

trial and error is also pretty effective
 
Down and dirty recording is relatively easy and can achieve a plethora of goals, certainly including wide public distribution. Learning & understanding the physics behind audio (& acoustics) is another matter. Music Biz and recording industry is as much fashion as physics. An apprenticeship approach will likely expose one to as much hokum as immutable first principles. But that can quite easily translate to faster economic success. Point? Primarily that even definition of 'experience' can be as challenging as gaining it. Considering the toll that being in the industry (mus) can extract I've been doing this for a fairly long time. I only got into the technical side of recording based on an ambivalence, that bordered on disgust and rage, towards institutions and individuals available (to me) as I got started. Even after clients began to pay me to record & mix I spent at least a decade not merely reinventing the wheel (my ambivalence was such that almost everything to which I'd been exposed, with regard to music, audio, acoustics, had to be challenged) but unlearning a lot of magical thinking. Stuff I wanted to believe simply because I wanted to believe it but was not ultimately supported by the physics. And the simple truth is physics will always trump fashion. (which does not mean that something based on momentary fashion supported by questionable physics will not sell 7 million copies)

The underlying principles might remain consistent but the technology that supports the practice has evolved relatively rapidly during the past 100 yr. (essentially the life span of recording). Specific bits of technology were explored, introduced frequently to off set specific problems with relatively specific situations. Recordings that were obviously superior, in terms of audio not performance, to typical live shows only emerged about half way through that recording history. The direct to disc (or cylinder) that was all that was available at the turn of the 20th century simply did not support recording percussion the way we think of it today. Musicians that learned from recordings didn't hear percussion and percussion use as a time keeping rhythm instrument was skewed by fashion. Dog house base shared some of the same limitations and was frequently ignored as a harmonic and rhythmic lynch pin. Banjo, briefly in recordings 100 yr. history, became the defining rhythmic voice in pop music. The guitar as it existed at the time was not perceived to have projection necessary for live pop ensemble work. And at the time recording was still driven by live performance. For what ever reason (fashion filtered by physics) guitar design was tinkered with, dreadnought styles, steel strings, resonators, magnetic pickups, solid bodies. In the late 30's as Charlie Christian was experimenting with electronics so guitar could compete with piano and brass it is unlikely that anyone envisioned what was going to evolve for guitar. Existing technology tends to limit what we can achieve, we modify tech to address those limitations, the new tech suggests aesthetic goals not possible before. Individuals working in the industry express different levels of experience along the arc of evolving tech and fluctuating fashion. And discourse will frequently employ the same word but mean very, very different things, individual to individual. Even today there is no 'professionally' defined lexicon. (my somewhat educated guess is that what I mean by 'mastering' differs significantly from perhaps 95% of individuals currently using the word. The difference is significant enough that there is almost no way to bridge the gap)

Frequently on forums such as this/these myself, as well as other posters, use the word experience not suggest a specific cannon of knowledge but an approach. By and large we know that as you are getting started that you don't know, you can't target a specific result from a specific technique. But referencing 'experience' not only keeps posts shorter (then this one) but provides a bit of encouragement . . . it is not access to a mystical cannon that determines results, but patience and hard work. Even after years of experience (some people will acquire the skill set quicker then others . . . reduction in cost of tech has not improved the undemocratic distribution of raw talent) selecting which of a half dozen competing (and superficially similar) strategies that will focus accurately on a specific goal can remain challenging. At entry level even defining a specific goal can be a bitch. Lack of experience might mean that one can not distinguish among A, B, C and/or M. In terms of economic return the need to quickly and clearly define who the actual client might be and how the accuracy of this issue will limit technical choices is something lost, and nearly completely unrecognizable by 20 something novices (and not just 20somethings). At the other end of the arc a lot of young practitioners, short on experience have challenged experiential norms. The results of the challenges have in turned introduced ideas that became new standardized norms. Recording 'experience' remains in flux.

Within certain limits a novice has never been in a better position to learn by doing. Not only is the price point (in terms not only of $ but time) lower then it has ever been (my first pro studio not only required a partner, but required, from me, a $10k investment for just the 4 track tape platform). Software tools provide very specific and targeted control over nearly all relevant parameters. While one might start and even eventually default to emulation's of iconic gear typically a dynamics processor bundled with a typical DAW gives one a chance to experiment with all the parameters that can specifically influence audio dynamics. Initially the wealth of variables can be confusing but all it takes is time to modify a parameter until you hear a change, then you drop that 'change' back into the mix and see how that might effect it. While the variables of typical pop (or metal or blues) mix are not infinite but because the variables are dependent it typically means determining the exact results, in advance is intractable. Metaphorically this means one is always in motion, flux, aiming at a moving target.

For all the misinformation that inhabits these forums there are, nearly always, nuggets of useful info. It is of course difficult to distinguish what is merely fashionable from what will remain useful in 5 or 10 yr. And unfortunately at least a slight majority of people with personalities that lean towards audio production are not merely prone to magical thinking but have blindly wishful expectations. Again, unfortunately, with regard to home recording, the most important element, frequently the most expensive element is the one over which one has the least control: creating a functional venue for mixing. If you can not hear accurately the ability to gain experience in private is severely restricted. Under no, currently available, circumstances, is pumping 86 dB (spl @ 2 ft.) into a 10'X 10'X 7' room going to produce a functional environment for mixing. Not saying one can not track and mix in a typical suburban bedroom. But that environment is going to introduce artifacts into the recording process from which one can not gain experience to deal with effectively. Ultimately, to gain experience that translates into reality, one has to work in a venue that does not mask and distort what one can hear. That is a lesson that it took me more then a couple of years to learn. Simply being in commercial studios with relatively good listening environments, due largely to personality conflicts, early in my music/performance career did not reinforce the lesson.

No matter what one has at home you need to work at some point in an acoustically sound environment otherwise the experience one gains is going to be flawed, crippled, challenged. And it will not translate from environment to environment, from fashion to fashion. Unfortunately it is a reality I can't stress too strongly. Unfortunately, as with everything to do with audio production there is more then one way to approach this issue. The approach that is individually most successful will be dependent on the specific individual. For a number (at least a handful) of years I actually recommended Nashville's Belmont University music biz program/major as a pathway to all sorts of music industry careers. It was not an approach suitable for everyone, nor was the curriculum ever something about which I was wildly enthusiastic. But at the very least it tended to be a relatively decent reality check and more then a handful of commercial studios, at the time (roughly a decade ago) used students regularly as unpaid interns. A major reason I promoted the program was (not even due to my use of unpaid interns) because in 2001 Belmont acquired the Ocean Way recording facility. While I had never been satisfied, and remained somewhat vocal about my disenchantment, with control room monitoring decisions of the studio when it was a commercial facility, it was educationally a fairly unique resource. To which, in my limited experience (though never as a student) students had appropriate hands on access. All paths towards experience are compromise. No matter what one feels about mid 50's Sun Studio product it was and is not an appropriate venue for the average novice to gain experience with mixing. For different reasons it would also be impossible for me to recommend the late 60's early 70's Record Plant environment as appropriate for novices. And for even different reasons, again with limited experience, I have found specialty recording schools to be largely useless in providing translatable experience for real world environments. (and doesn't mean that some individual out there making 100's of 1000's of $s more per year than I am didn't emerge from one of those schools . . . merely in my experience they to not represent a good cost/benefit gamble)

recap: if learning at home select individual tools (dynamics, EQ, time ('verb, etc.) based, etc.) that provide the broadest range of control of parameters. (doesn't mean you have to ignore emulation's that are based on pre-set subsets, or fx blends of subsets. . . valve emulation's will nearly always involve emulation of specific distortion plus parameters that actually influence the specific class (compression EQ, etc.) but the better emulation's will introduce elements that are not, necessarily, a function of the audio element theoretically being addressed. Sorting artifacts based on older technical limitations from the audio element being addressed can be confusing . . . but spending time with 'clean' tools can be beneficial). Manipulate those parameters until you hear the influence. Back the parameter off until you don't. listen to the changes in a number of different environments trying to discover conditions that contribute to acoustically neutral transparency.

Nor do you have to wait for some arbitrarily fashionable level of experience to attempt to work on other's projects. Nothing reinforces 'experience' more then other people's responses (does not mean they are right and you are wrong . . . (or vice versa) merely that anything that pulls you out of a subjective shell can be valuable. Generally (very generally) speaking recording is something meant for public distribution. Even if the basis for the critique is rejected it can remain valuable. And if you ever reach a point where you stop experimenting, listening skeptically to your own work, think you are finally 'experienced' it is probably time to get out of the game.

good luck
 
Within certain limits a novice has never been in a better position to learn by doing.
I think that has to be the longest post I've yet come across ! And I'm a man of many words......but that was just too too long. And I did read it. I could've flown to Spain in the time it took though.
To the OP, the above quote is actually encouraging in your favour. But there's no escaping it - you gain experience by doing . Just on this forum alone (and there are loads of internet recording forums) there is more than enough information/debate/instruction to get any human being started. And on the move. And as you hit snags and problems there are people who can help in real time.
You're pretty fortunate. When I first started recording, nothing like this existed. I didn't know a soul on earth that could help, teach or advise me. So I picked up what I knew by offhand comments in interviews, rock biographies, the little I could understand from the manual of my gear........and plain old fashioned experimenting and doing. Sure, I probably took alot longer to discover things than I would take if I were starting now. But despite the frustration at times, oh the fun and discovery !
Do you know how to discover why you shouldn't pour a whole cannister of salt into a meal you're cooking ? Pour one eighth of it in.......
 
You're pretty fortunate. When I first started recording, nothing like this existed. I didn't know a soul on earth that could help, teach or advise me. So I picked up what I knew by offhand comments in interviews, rock biographies, the little I could understand from the manual of my gear........and plain old fashioned experimenting and doing. Sure, I probably took alot longer to discover things than I would take if I were starting now. But despite the frustration at times, oh the fun and discovery!

I was in the same boat in 1985. I just 'did it' and learned as I went along.
 
ok guys you have excelled yourselves once more!

thankyou for some great posts. i was kind of hoping something like this might happen and it can be a good and encouraging resource for other people starting up; all thanks to your great comments!


..figure this is short hand for something. I have some experience but, get to where exactly? :eek:

hah sos - MT = music tech :)

A level (yeah right u know what that is) and a Btec diploma is the equivilent of 3 A levels but in one subject eg music tech, performing arts, plumbing, bricklaying.... anything really. also diploma will be more practical hands on kind of course.
 
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1. Try

2. Fail

3. Analyze

4. Change

5. Repeat

+1

Now I'm pretty young, and I'm an absolute novice at home recording, but the one thing I can say is that getting experienced with something is more than just doing something a lot. Yes, you need to do it a lot, but you also need to be critical, and you need to try a broad range of tasks. I think it's easy to spend a lifetime doing something poorly. I used to be a high school math teacher, and along with many excellent veteran teachers, there were plenty of awful ones who have been awful for decades.

A good teacher will keep up the pressure for you to get a lot of practice, but she or he will also put that variety of tasks in front of you and supply criticism. It's hard but not impossible to supply all of these things for yourself.

Best of luck!
 
I think that has to be the longest post I've yet come across ! And I'm a man of many words......but that was just too too long. And I did read it. I could've flown to Spain in the time it took though.

don't disagree but I am one of the many that has said 'experience' & 'just do it' as short hand for what the process actually entails

if OP lacked patience to read post he actually lacks patience (too short an attention span) to gain much from someone like me, even in face to face 'unpaid intern' situations . . .

unfortunately a lot of the 'just do it' individuals 'just do
it' wrong and 'just do it' wrong for a lot of years (simply see the bulk of 'mastering' questions) . . . so even today when it is easier then ever before the question of 'how' to gain effective experience remains and remains difficult to answer in short hand . . . to be honest when I started if someone merely repeated, over and over, 'just do it' I would have had the compulsion to hit them in the head with a hickory ax handle (w/o blade/head) . . . how can you use a dictionary to look up a word when you don't know how to spell?

but, yes, even my own verbosity pisses me off at times
 
@Oretez

I personally really enjoyed your post. you did manage to pass on some great insight.

if I cant manage to read that, how can I manage to read the rest of the posts! ;)
let alone any remotely detailed text on mic's, interfaces, software etc...
any decent internet review will put enough detail in it that the average surfer will get bored just looking at the mass of writing. and being average all over the place won't improve anyone.
that is exactly why people come to forums to learn stuff - without buying a book on it they can get more than the average "user friendly" software review will supply. 3 paragraph chunks of info on about.com and wikihow are great but just not enough for someone who wants some in-depth material and has read them all already!

i applaud Oretez for having the patients for someone like me who really wants to learn something that isn't a quick fix "press these buttons in sequence" answer.

thanks
 
Now I'm pretty young, and I'm an absolute novice at home recording, but the one thing I can say is that getting experienced with something is more than just doing something a lot. Yes, you need to do it a lot, but you also need to be critical, and you need to try a broad range of tasks. I think it's easy to spend a lifetime doing something poorly. I used to be a high school math teacher, and along with many excellent veteran teachers, there were plenty of awful ones who have been awful for decades.
I agree with that. But ultimately, if you are confronted with gear, you need to play about with it and read up where possible, especially in the absence of someone to show you how, at that moment. And of course testing your efforts and getting some sort of feedback. But experience ultimately comes from doing. Funny thing is, you can have lots of experience and still be rubbish !
don't disagree but I am one of the many that has said 'experience' & 'just do it' as short hand for what the process actually entails

if OP lacked patience to read post he actually lacks patience (too short an attention span) to gain much from someone like me, even in face to face 'unpaid intern' situations . . .

unfortunately a lot of the 'just do it' individuals 'just do
it' wrong and 'just do it' wrong for a lot of years (simply see the bulk of 'mastering' questions) . . . so even today when it is easier then ever before the question of 'how' to gain effective experience remains and remains difficult to answer in short hand

I wasn't being rude or anything. I've read some of your posts and they're informative and interesting. But if the OP stalled at reading the long one, it wouldn't be for lack of patience ! I think many people say "just do it" because for the most part, that is how they've learned and they have acquired some measure of skill. It isn't a cop out. Also, "just doing it" entails analysing and being critical and growth.
 
didn't take it as being rude

and even if it been meant that way I probably would not have recognized it being pretty OK with my deserved reputation for being sensitive as a toilet seat

(if I didn't despise smilies I might even think about dropping one here as an expression assist)
 
Labette Community College in Parsons, KS offers a "Recording Arts" (formerly labeled "Audio Engineering") program and it's extremely cheap compared to Full Sail, etc. The work load is easier, and it takes self-motivation.

The instructor there is Russell Head, a guy who certainly knows his stuff and is a really great guy.

So yeah, I've been there 3 semesters, about to do my fourth, and I've learned quite a bit. I don't know where you are so you might already know a lot of what they teach, or you may not.

www.labette.edu

You're probably not close to there, eh?
 
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