Expensive mic + Cheap pre = ?

M

mcolling

New member
My band just returned from a day at a great studio tracking instruments (live off the floor) for a demo. Now we're going to be overdubbing stuff in my humble home studio. The most imortant set of overdubs is, of course, vocals.

I have cheapo gear including a studio projects vtb1 preamp and a delta 1010 soundcard and need to rent a nice vocal mic (possibly a tlm 103 or AT 4050).

My question is:

Is the mic the most important part of the equation or should I also rent a nice preamp or D/A converters. Assuming a budget of X dollars, where will I see the most result for my money?

Regards,
Mike
 
The mic is not the most important item in the chain, they are ALL important.That said, if you have decent equipment,cables,patchbays,etc and get a good clean signal recorded properly( levels , mic placement,processing) you should get a good result. I have heard many pro recording that I thought were not up to par and they had great top of the line gear. Look what Springsteen did with a Tascam 144 back in the 80's. Back to you question about "most important" item. It's like having the best handling sports car made and you are driving it down a bumpy dirt road. A Neumann U47( this being the sportscar :) ) ran through a radioshack mixer,shity cables,overcompressed with bad compressor( this being bumpy dirt road :) ) will not sound like U47 should. It will be interesting I think if you do have decent gear to compare at the end of the project the tracks you recorded youself against the pro studio tracks. That will really give you a hint of what great gear and experience will do to the end result. Have fun with it! ;)
 
mcolling said:
My band just returned from a day at a great studio tracking instruments (live off the floor) for a demo. Now we're going to be overdubbing stuff in my humble home studio. The most imortant set of overdubs is, of course, vocals.

I have cheapo gear including a studio projects vtb1 preamp and a delta 1010 soundcard and need to rent a nice vocal mic (possibly a tlm 103 or AT 4050).

My question is:

Is the mic the most important part of the equation or should I also rent a nice preamp or D/A converters. Assuming a budget of X dollars, where will I see the most result for my money?

Regards,
Mike
Click to expand...

The VTB1 and 1010 isn't bad gear, actually, it's pretty good for what you pay for. Yes, there are lots of better pres and converters, but you can get great results with those. I do recomend the 4050, and I like the NTK, but I have no experience with the 103.

What mic are you currently using?

Jacob
 
Decent Mic...4040 or tlm103..but GOOD pre..I think the $$ are in the pre..a shure 58 thru an API sounds WAY better than the same mic thru a vtb-1..The variables in mics from an electronics standpoint are less than in a pre..components, design, transformers and power supply and consumption...more volts in usually equals better response and headroom(!) ...rent a good pre..the converters in the 1010 aren't stellar but they are not that bad....

Cheers,
Ray
 
Thanks for the replies. I am glad that we are taking a practical approach as a opposed to a theoretical one.

I am currently using a SP B1, MXL 990 or a SM57. Out of these, the 57 sounds the best on my voice-- I can eq it with OK results.

The vtb1 and delta 1010 are, indeed, not horrendous. I'm wondering if I split my money on both a mid-priced pre and a mid-priced mic if it would be as good as a more expensive mic through the vtb1.
 
mic = acoustics > A/D converter = or greater than preamp

IMO of course. I have a (great mic)soundelux u195, a great and a good pre (Chandler TG2 pre, GT Brick pre), and decent A/D(RME ADI-2). I got the biggest improvements from upgrading mics and my A/D converter. There is also a HUMONGOUS difference between the sound I get at my house with horrible acoutics and the sound I get at my school's studio, even when using the same mics. Preamps from my experience give more of what I would describe as a "feeling" rather than having a huge sonic difference. Take all this with a grain of salt because I am a noob, even though I have experience with some higher end gear.
 
I'm most likely going to be recording the vocals in a living room-type of situation, although I may also try them dry with blankets, etc.

Oh, and I should mention, the more money I have to spend on rental gear, the less I can spend on booze for the session (I find that that is actually the most important part of the signal chain:))
 
mcolling said:
My band just returned from a day at a great studio tracking instruments (live off the floor) for a demo. Now we're going to be overdubbing stuff in my humble home studio. The most imortant set of overdubs is, of course, vocals.

I have cheapo gear including a studio projects vtb1 preamp and a delta 1010 soundcard and need to rent a nice vocal mic (possibly a tlm 103 or AT 4050).

My question is:

Is the mic the most important part of the equation or should I also rent a nice preamp or D/A converters. Assuming a budget of X dollars, where will I see the most result for my money?

Regards,
Mike
Click to expand...

Yes, everything is important.
But the answer to your specific question and situation would be....

The mic. Easily. But go to the rental shop, and try the mics and preamp outs before you rent them - and form your own opinion...cause this stuff is extremely subjective! You should be able to get a more than good sound with the VTB-1.
 
If you are going to be recording in a house, and you have the luxoury of a somewhat mobile recording set-up, i.e. computer, then walk around the house and find the best sounding room with some nice natural reverb in it and record there. Try as hard as possible not to record vocals in a completly dead room. Vocals just sound better in a room with a little natural verb. Heck sometimes the bathroom with its heavy reflective surfaces and quick decay time may work. Just don't deaden like a closet.

Remember just listen to the room you record in.
 
We seem to have a difference of opinion here!
teainthesahara said:
Yes, everything is important.
But the answer to your specific question and situation would be....

The mic.
Click to expand...
or
SumSOundGuy said:
a cheap mic with a good pre will sound way better than a great mic through a cheap pre.
Click to expand...
I've been on the Listening Sessions, and the pres do seem to make a significant difference. The VTB1 sounds worse than, say, the Great Rivers. I don't think that the cheap mics through expensive pres sound better than the expensive mics through the cheap pres.

I'm leaning towards going with a TLM 103 through the VTB1.
 
mcolling said:
I don't think that the cheap mics through expensive pres sound better than the expensive mics through the cheap pres.
Click to expand...
oh no? try a 57 thru a cheap pre, then try it through a high-end one. huge difference.
 
SumSoundGuy said:
oh no? try a 57 thru a cheap pre, then try it through a high-end one. huge difference.
Click to expand...
This is not the issue. I'm saying asking about a subsequent comparison of both 57 results to a U87 through a cheap pre and a high-end one.
 
All of this stuff is so relative....what is a mole hill of change for one person is a mountain for another. An sm57's sound, through any cheap or expensive preamp will sound very much different. That is a known phenomenon, and has partly to due with impedance loading blah blah (insert technical description). I've found this effect to be MUCH less pronounced with condensor mics amongst the 8 or 9 preamps i own. If your doing lead vocals through an sm57, then yeah, no arguments here...get the really good preamp. But SM57 + expensive preamp sound is an entirely different sound than an expesnsive condensor paired with a workable preamp, like the vtb1. If its that "condensor" sound your looking for in lead vocals....then you focus on the condensor mic as a priority, and less so the other stuff in the chain. I dunno..makes sense for me. Of course, it is nice to have everything in the chain up to par...but sometimes you gotta set your priorities and give er....
 
I always thought the things that transfer one form of energy to another made the biggest difference in sound. Like mics that transform mechanical energy to electrical, and speakers that of course do the oppsite. Preamps take something that yes is so small, but its still just electicity, being amp'd up to a usable level. Maybe that thinking is screwed up somehow???
 
teainthesahara said:
All of this stuff is so relative....what is a mole hill of change for one person is a mountain for another. An sm57's sound, through any cheap or expensive preamp will sound very much different. That is a known phenomenon, and has partly to due with impedance loading blah blah (insert technical description). I've found this effect to be MUCH less pronounced with condensor mics amongst the 8 or 9 preamps i own. If your doing lead vocals through an sm57, then yeah, no arguments here...get the really good preamp. But SM57 + expensive preamp sound is an entirely different sound than an expesnsive condensor paired with a workable preamp, like the vtb1. If its that "condensor" sound your looking for in lead vocals....then you focus on the condensor mic as a priority, and less so the other stuff in the chain. I dunno..makes sense for me. Of course, it is nice to have everything in the chain up to par...but sometimes you gotta set your priorities and give er....
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice. And you are from the Island as well!

I knew you were Canadian when you said give'r... lol. I love Fubar.
 
my $0.02, as someone who only has experience with cheap gear...

originally had an SP B1 (along with a half dozen other Chinese mics) and DMP3. sold the B1 and got an AT4040 and was wowed by the difference. much better, more defined, less harsh.

i figured id upgrade the preamp too, so i bought a GT Brick. very little difference over the DMP3. couldn't hear the tube warmth people were talking about. so i sold the GT Brick and bought another DMP3.

i havent tried the $1K preamps yet, but until i can afford one, i think i'll just stick with buying new mics (next on my list is the EV RE20)
 
The brick is not a high end pre...true tube, yes...but at that price point the transformers in it must be....well....cheap and crappy..A high end input transformer alone can cost 100$ or more...I don't think "the sound" is in the tube anyway. The sound is in the transformers which true voltage tube pre's have to have due to the extremely high impedances of tube circuits...A good, transfomer based solid state pre will blow your doors off as much as a good tube pre....transformers, voltage and head room my good fellow..as E. Manley said..."it's all in the jules"

Ray
 
In the context of a mix everything here that has been said is at times 100% correct, and at other times 100% wrong.

It's those flaps on the side of your head that will tell you the truth in each case.

War
 
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