errrghhh!!!

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Ford Van said:
Failure? I supported myself for about 10 years on audio alone in a market where almost nobody else has! I did quite well thank you! :D


I'll bet most Guitar Center guys made more money during that same timeframe.

And they're in "audio" too. Just like you, Ed. :D
 
Ford Van said:
Yes, I agree, guys like Massive Master and BruceBear really have ruined the spirit of this place! ;)
What a shitty thing to say about Massive Master and BlueBear !!! :mad: :mad:
 
true-eurt said:
What a shitty thing to say about Massive Master and BlueBear !!! :mad: :mad:
True, When Ed swings to his bipo lows, he takes no prisoners when it comes to whom he says shitty things about.

The thing is, Ed *loves* this thread almost as much as EZ does, but for completly different reasons. Ed loves this crap when he swings depressed because he becomes the center of attention, and in a very twisted way it makes him feel better about himself. It's the Internet forum version of those who slash their wrists in false suicide attempts just for the attention.

Christ, Ed, just take your medicine, get some help from your family and friends, and get on with your life, would ya? As much as you think this attention is making you feel good, it's all empty emotional calories that aren't doing you or anyone else any good.

And, before you simply say that I'm just spewing cheap pshcyobabble, then perhaps YOU would like to explain why your suddenly decide to act like an asshole towards everyone every couple of weeks or so? We are all waiting for an explanation that's better than this one.

G.
 
The other thing is, Ed *knows* what a good mix sounds like in the first place. Most of the people who ask "mastering" questions like this do not.

Of course, this makes it even more confusing on all parties...
 
daveblue222 said:
why do i have to send my mixes to a mastering house?, surely this is what home recording is meant to be about (doing everything yourself).how do i master my track?, thats all i want to know. i want to learn how to do it. obviously this is done in cubase (or whatever program you are using) whats the difference between mastering and mixing? how do i double track?. my mind like a sponge at the moment and in my opinion i have learnt alot over the last couple of years, but i wish to learn more about the more advanced side of things rather than leaving it to someone else. obviously if the time ever came to produce a commercial CD of some kind I would leave it to the pros. but at the moment its a hobbie which i want to learn more about and appriciate as alot of musicians like myself tend to overlook.

Who said you need to master at all?

If it is your music and you intend to only listen to it on your system, mastering is useless. Mastering is only useful for portability (played on endlessly different systems). Mix and listen.
 
Ford Van said:
It just cracks me up that whenever this comes up, nobody looks at the REALITY of audio production!

Reality 1 - Probably not so great of a tune. Maybe not so bad, but 80% of the stuff I hear here just is not very skillful songwriting/arrangements! I don't care how much you polish that turd of a song with high dollar mics and preamps, if it ain't arranged right, your mix will suck!

Reality 2 - When the most asked question is "What is the cheapest "good" *insert audio component here* I can get" at this site, you HAVE to expect that:

a - The person is very inexperienced
b - Has built a WHOLE STUDIO on a budget that is probably less than one beautiful AKG C-12!

On top of all of that, this person is going to probably play an Ibanez $300 special guitar through a POS Marshall Valvestate or Line6 crap thingy. The drums will have 2 year old heads, and a drummer that doesn't understand CONSISTENCY. The bass player will give you a blank stare if you ask if he has EVER set the intonation on his bass!

With all that marginal talent, this inexperienced engineer, who is probably the lame guitar player in the band, is going to wear two hats that he is FAR from being ready to wear, Producer and Engineer. Of course, the singer who couldn't carry a tune if he owned an ipod is going to have some "opinions" about the production that just HAVE to happen! If he don't get his way, he will of course refuse to sing. :rolleyes: (although, wouldn't that usually be doing us a big ass favor? :))

So that chinese mic to that dmp-1000PRO pre, to that $100 mudaudio soundcard, and butchered in Adobe Audition at "32 bits!". This is gonna be mixed in lame guitar players bedroom of course, usually using self powered monitors that only make marginal playback speakers for mp3's.

He is not going to use ANY reference material as he goes along.

He is probably not even going to reference song to song on this production!

So after ALL of that, you guys think that he should cough up like $500 to have a "pro" master it?

:rolleyes:

I tell you what, grab the best "free" limiter you can, and whip out the best eq you can get your hands on. Run that audio through the eq first, then the limiter. Try to achieve about a -13db RMS level and call it good. Try to make all the songs sound about the same in the eq department. Make all the songs about the same perceived level.

Fade them in, and fade them out as needed. Apply some 16 bit dither and save as 16 bit. Make an order for the songs and burn a freakin' disk. Go listen to it in your car, your home, on your friends Dell desktop with "Bose" surround speakers, and anywhere else you can think of. Listen for some "problems" in the eq and if need be, go back and "fix" them.

Burn your final master and start duplicating them and sell/give them away as quickly as possible.

Trust me, don't go wasting your money on a overpriced mastering engineer until you are SURE you can sell AT LEAST 3000 copies of your release! It simply is not worth it otherwise. Spend that money on some "promotion" to sell some more CD's.

If people like your music, they will like it whether you "master" it, or if some schuck with Wavelab and Waves Mastering Bundle, or Mr.Gear God Complex does it. It won't matter ONE BIT to your VERY SMALL LOCAL AUDIENCE WHO THE FUCK MASTERED YOUR CD!!! In a week, the buzz is usually gone, and the drummer is showing up late to every practice, the singer is looking for a new girlfriend to live with, and tips are down at your Pizza Hut delivery job! No need to worry about getting "the very best" out of your demo that was doomed when you first decided to do it yourself!

Your other route to the above is to go the FULL PRO route! If you fucking care ONE IOTA about your audio, you won't attempt to produce it yourself UNLESS you have a LOT of experience doing other people's music! You will pay for a "pro" to record/mix/master is! It ain't gonna be cheap going this route! Plan on spending at least $500 PER SONG for recording/mixing, and consider upping that to around $1500 per song if you really wanna rock! Then, you can really take advantage of Mr.Gear God Complex "mastering engineer" to the fullest! He will have SOMETHING WORTHWHILE to work with, and you can expect your finished product to SOMEWHAT compete with what you hear on the radio.

So, what I am saying is, if you are going to recommend a "mastering engineer", you better recommend they use a tracking and mixing engineer too! Otherwise, it is just silly talk!



Mastering is NOT rocket science by any means! Simply, they use some eq, some compression, some limiting, sometimes some expansion, stereo enhancing, etc...to "pretty up" the audio a bit. Seldom do they do very much! If they have to do more than around 2 or 3 db of eq, and more than around 4dB of gain reduction on the compressor, and maybe around 4-6db of gain reduction on the limiter, then the mix is fucked! The mix is probably fucked because the tracking was fucked! The tracking was fucked probably because the performance and source sounds were fucked!

It starts at the beginning folks. The VERY beginning. Most guys would be spending better money by buying new drums heads and tuning them, and intonating the guitars, and probably renting some QUALITY amps and mics more than some gear snob trying to polish the turd at the end!
There ya' go folks ..... the short guide to mastering and everyone should reread all that 'till they get it.
As some wise person on this very board once told me (I think it might have been chessrock), "It's mastered once it's burned to CD."
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
True, When Ed swings to his bipo lows, he takes no prisoners when it comes to whom he says shitty things about.

The thing is, Ed *loves* this thread almost as much as EZ does, but for completly different reasons. Ed loves this crap when he swings depressed because he becomes the center of attention, and in a very twisted way it makes him feel better about himself. It's the Internet forum version of those who slash their wrists in false suicide attempts just for the attention.

Christ, Ed, just take your medicine, get some help from your family and friends, and get on with your life, would ya? As much as you think this attention is making you feel good, it's all empty emotional calories that aren't doing you or anyone else any good.

And, before you simply say that I'm just spewing cheap pshcyobabble, then perhaps YOU would like to explain why your suddenly decide to act like an asshole towards everyone every couple of weeks or so? We are all waiting for an explanation that's better than this one.

G.

LOL...asshole to everybody? LOL..........
 
Lt. Bob said:
There ya' go folks ..... the short guide to mastering and everyone should reread all that 'till they get it.
As some wise person on this very board once told me (I think it might have been chessrock), "It's mastered once it's burned to CD."

A-fucking-men!
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
True, When Ed swings to his bipo lows, he takes no prisoners when it comes to whom he says shitty things about.

The thing is, Ed *loves* this thread almost as much as EZ does, but for completly different reasons. Ed loves this crap when he swings depressed because he becomes the center of attention, and in a very twisted way it makes him feel better about himself.
G.

Why am I enjoying it so much? :confused:
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
True, When Ed swings to his bipo lows, he takes no prisoners when it comes to whom he says shitty things about.

The thing is, Ed *loves* this thread almost as much as EZ does, but for completly different reasons. Ed loves this crap when he swings depressed because he becomes the center of attention, and in a very twisted way it makes him feel better about himself. It's the Internet forum version of those who slash their wrists in false suicide attempts just for the attention.
G.
I try to understand, when people, whom carry emotional baggage, including myself, will at times, react passionately to certain things and that some of us can become angry, defensive and aggressively belittling towards others...WHEN...we feel we or someone else, is being threatened, ridiculed or attacked. I also try to have compassion for whatever hurt has been retained in the asshole's heart.

I try to understand, why some people feel they must continue, bestowing their anger upon others unsolicited, and do so in the blink of an eye, without any just cause whatsoever. They do so in an unreasonable and rather harsh fashion, and in doing so, seem to gain feelings of power and accomplishments, however false they may be.

Because of their affliction, they can become almost socio-pathic in their treatment of others. Feeling only their needs, their struggle, their hurt, their goals and in doing so, think themselves to be superior to others, in order to deal with their own feelings of doubt and insecurity.

Their social interactions with people, for the most part is negative....NOT seeing any wrong in their doing, but deriving great pleasure and self satisfaction from it. They will do what they have to do, to get what they want, at the expense of others. They do however, oddly enough, seem to latch on to one or two people along the way, seeing them as allies, in attempts, to ward off that vast feeling of complete loneness...as long as those few do not come against them harshly...For pity be them, when and if, that socio-pathic person, decides they no longer retain any value their means. They will toss them aside and feel no remorse, taking no blame in the breakdown of friendship.

The FEW members here, who delight in being the center of attention, especially conflictive attention, at the cost of others feelings, seem to have a resentment of those, who don't go around smearing everyones face, in a TIRADE of self-serving, self-proclaiming know-it-all BS.

Most of us here, try to be polite and tolerant of diversities and if someone has noob-ily spouted something wrong, then to NOT be an asshole when addressing them. Or if someone is grouchy, to try and bring out the positive side of them. Even the behavour in the Cave, is for the most part, light-hearted fun...though crash and sometimes evil :eek: ...but some insist on bringing their arsenine ways, out into the rest of the BBS, showing their ass and ignorance in socialization of the masses and doing so on a regular basis.

And just because I try to understand, does not mean I deem it acceptable and will continue to let it roll off as BS. There is a time to say, enough is enough and kick their arse out of the circle of decent people, who are wanting to help and have fun doing so.

If someone wants to continue being an arse, then let them do so in loneness. Why should anyone give a crap, about what those kinds of people know? There are a lot of people who know EVEN more. People without the rudeness, and belittling talk. Why should ANYONE get away with consistent rudeness and Arsenine behavour, just because they may know something. Why pat them on the back anymore? Why give them approval for their behavour, by continuing to acknowledge their presence. It is time for them to grow up or go away.

If I must constantly feel ashamed and questionable, of my friendship with someone, because of their habitual method of attacking others for no other purpose, than jealousy and covetness, then perhaps I am in the wrong friendship.......Eh...someone had to say it. ;)
 
I can see where you're coming from, True.

But at the same time, one has to recognize that this is just a message board, not to be confused too much with reality. There is a certain amount of risk one has to be willing to take when they involve themselves in public discussion with an anonymous group of people on the web, with all comments open to public view and/or scrutiny.

Granted, Fordvan has issues, and yes, he's basically a fucktard. But I recognize his right to express what he thinks, however he should see fit. Even complete social pariahs have the right to express their thoughts -- regardless of how awkwardly they fumble through the process.
 
chessrock said:
I can see where you're coming from, True.

But at the same time, one has to recognize that this is just a message board, not to be confused too much with reality. There is a certain amount of risk one has to be willing to take when they involve themselves in public discussion with an anonymous group of people on the web, with all comments open to public view and/or scrutiny.

Granted, Fordvan has issues, and yes, he's basically a fucktard. But I recognize his right to express what he thinks, however he should see fit. Even complete social pariahs have the right to express their thoughts -- regardless of how awkwardly they fumble through the process.
Why Chess, whatever makes you think I was aiming my post at Ford Van? :confused:

I was only stating my opinion on a public message board, as to how I felt about arsenine socio-path people, attacking others without just cause.

If Ford Van happens to come to mind, as you or others read my post, then that is no doing of mine...it would seem to be the reflection of what a person has left in their own trail of ...well...whatever they have strewn around and not cleaned up.

For many here, this is not just a message board. People sometimes, first meet on here and then talk on the phone or meet face to face. There is also JAMFEST, where many here attend and meet other members. They share friendship, food and music for several days. I personally know a couple of members here face to face...one of them, for many many years. I also have spoken on the phone to several members and still do, with a few on a regular basis.

I have been judged by some, just because I have many post and high rep ....WTF...talk about closed minded idiocy...but I have more often, been treated with respect and fun and genuine kindness.

I have been mailed gifts of wine, gear and CD's with notes handwritten from the sender. I have been graciously helped with recording issues and given help, concerning my guitar skills or knowledge...etc...I have also gotten support, when I was concerned about loved ones and made to laugh during times I wanted to cry...and when I did cry, I was shown compassion. I am not the only one here to experience this type of kindness.

This IS more than just a message board. This is a learning place for people who have one thing in common for sure...the love of music. It is also a place where many connect and make long term friendships....some for life. So you see, many here are not so anonymous. Besides, it pays to be courteous and show some respect to whomever you deal with, even at at anonymity level..you never know when you will be revealed, or if you will meet them.

I have a right to express my opinion as much as anyone else, and I myself was reprimanded by someone last night on the board, who poos in their own backyard...

I will tell them now, without naming names....they may politely phuck off and leave it at that. ;)

I've had my say now and now plan to ignore those, whom choose to babble egotistical BS. If I want help with my tracking, mixing, mastering...or whatever it is I need help with, there are lots of well learned and knowledgable people around, who will be HONEST in their replies and do so with CLASS.

I pay attention and read a lot more than some might think. ;)

Thanks for the response Chess. :)
 
chessrock said:
But at the same time, one has to recognize that this is just a message board, not to be confused too much with reality.

Just so I'm clear, are you suggesting that it's important to pull from this board what you believe is valid to your situation and will help you grow musically and/or with your recording process, and not take it all waaaaaay too seriously?

And are you also saying that sometimes, some people will try to get your goat just because you have a goat to get, and that you need to recognize it when it's happening and either give up your goat, get the other person's goat, or disassociate yourself from that particular discussion?

I'd say that's brilliant advice!
 
daveblue222 said:
why do i have to send my mixes to a mastering house?, surely this is what home recording is meant to be about (doing everything yourself).how do i master my track

People often equate mastering with processing, it's listening with a qualified, objective, and experienced ear. Knowing what to do to the audio in order to help make it translate better, fit together better as a complete album, and basically bring out the best in a set of mixes along with some quality control issues (e.g. burning a CD without errors).

If you feel that you can do that to the level where you feel that you do not have to apologize, make excuses for, or in any other way not be 100% proud of your product when giving it to someone to listen to, then you do not need to use a mastering house.

If you're not 100% proud of your product, why add more noise pollution?
 
chessrock said:
one has to recognize that this is just a message board, not to be confused too much with reality.
How is this not reality? You are not a fig newton of my imagination any more than I am of yours. You are a real person typing real thoughts onto a real computer for other real people to read and respond to. At the basics, this is no different than a telephone conference call.

Most people here ask real questions and give real answers and tell real jokes about real topics. And most of the real people here are not participating 100% anonymously. It's only those jokers who like sitting in the back of the classroom, hoping not to get picked by the teacher, and want to spend their entire time shooting spitballs and making fun of the others, who consider this board to be fantasy and keep complete anonymity. No, this board is not 100% dead serious like the plague, we all joke around to one degree or another. But it IS real. You want to anonymously role play? Go to Dungeons and Dragons online or some other such fantasy world. That's what it there for. That's not what boards like this are for.

chessrock said:
There is a certain amount of risk one has to be willing to take when they involve themselves in public discussion with an anonymous group of people on the web, with all comments open to public view and/or scrutiny.
And that cuts both ways. If someone acts like an asshole and treats others like shit, they have to expect repurcussions in one form or another. At least Ed has an identity and he's not afraid of that, and he has the balls to stand up for himself AS HIMSELF and not hide behind a screen name alone. I give him credit for that.

He's also not stupid. He has made some excellent posts in the past and made some great contributions to this board. I have no doubt that he is at least competent engineer, if not better. It's his chronic inability to keep his tone civil or at least adult that so taint how the majority on this board feel about him and that so weaken his position that it gets to the point that most don't care *what* he says, whether it's right or wrong or whether he's the next George Martin or not. He's only hurting himself. In reality. Not in fantasy.

And I'm still waiting for his answer as to why he acts the way he does on this board. Ed, you aren't obliged to answer, and I frankly don't even seriously expect an answer. It's your call; it's a free world and it IS a public forum. I'm only saying that whatever the cause, it certainly isn't helping your cause in the least bit.

Yes there is risk in going out in public, whether it's physical public or cyber public. I'm just curious as to why some people purposely increase the risk. None of the various reasons I can think of (sport, masochism, egocentrism, attention-getting, vandalism) make much sense to me.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I'm just curious as to why some people purposely increase the risk. None of the various reasons I can think of (sport, masochism, egocentrism, attention-getting, vandalism) make much sense to me.

G.


Hell, if it stops him starting fires or indecently exposing himself...

Sorry, you're point was very good, didn't mean to belittle it. Though we're a million jillion miles off topic, perhaps we should let this one die.
 
I yam what I yam.

I was yamming here LONG before almost any of you. It works for me! :) I will continue to inspire many to excel, and will continue to provide excellent answers to real life problems in engineering.

I will have my fun also. ;)
 
Ford Van said:
I yam what I yam.

I was yamming here LONG before almost any of you. It works for me! :) I will continue to inspire many to excel, and will continue to provide excellent answers to real life problems in engineering.

I will have my fun also. ;)


Goddamnn but you need constant reprimanding!!! :eek: Don't be a tool and answer my question in the dragons cave.
 
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