eq'ing on monitors vs headphones

  • Thread starter Thread starter bethanyb321
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Every room is bad in a home recording situation. If you're talking good and bad, spare bedrooms, basements, living rooms, etc., they all qualify as bad. They're bad for mixing, they're usually bad for tracking. But we make do. We move things around. We put up room treatment. We make the necessary tweaks and sacrifices to improve. People that are serious and want to be better find a way and don't make endless excuses. So yeah, even in all of our bad rooms, monitors are still better. They just are. Monitors in a bad room are still better than headphones.
 
Farview said:
The companies that are selling gear are selling gear, not rooms.

It's your job to figure out what you need in your situation. In my last studio, one of my sets of monitors was a pair of Urei 813c's. I had them soffit mounted, because that's how they were meant to work and they were awesome. In the room I'm mixing in now, they wouldn't work at all. (partially because they were so big that they would take up half the room) It isn't because the speaker suck, it's because the space won't support them working correctly. I don't expect the people from Urei to inform me of that.
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Well I think a company, or their salesperson, should be upfront and tell you that the monitors might not improving mixing if placed in a bad room, and that headphones might be better in some cases. Many people have to learn the expensive way, to the companies benefit and the recorders detriment.

I disagree with Greg that monitors are always better. I know for a fact they wouldn't where I live. Of course he has to insult me and say it's an excuse when it's just reality. Farview, who I consider probably the most knowledgeable engineer on the board, just said so as well.

Anyway, to the OP and anyone considering monitors, consider your room and situation first. That's the bottom line -- headphones might be better for your situation.
 
I wasn't insulting you. Not everything is about you. Other people read these threads. I was making my own point about rooms and monitors. Someone might read what you've written and think that's how it is. I think it isn't. So maybe they'll read my post and come up with their own conclusion.
 
Greg_L said:
I wasn't insulting you. Not everything is about you. Other people read these threads. I was making my own point about rooms and monitors. Someone might read what you've written and think that's how it is. I think it isn't. So maybe they'll read my post and come up with their own conclusion.
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Okay cool, no problem.
If people are making excuses then I agree it's lame.
When I move somewhere better the first purchase I plan to make is monitors. Mostly for ear fatigue. I hate that about headphones. But I think they'd be better in a semi-decent room, no doubt. I just happen to live in some 70s shithole with cauliflower ceiling, hollow walls, carpet, glass windows all over, babies, cars/road, etc. It's atrocious. So I'm not investing in that gear here and do think it would be a waste.

My only point is that people should assess their situation b/c they are all unique and headphones could be better for some situations.
 
Nola said:
Okay cool, no problem.
If people are making excuses then I agree it's lame.
When I move somewhere better the first purchase I plan to make is monitors. Mostly for ear fatigue. I hate that about headphones. But I think they'd be better in a semi-decent room, no doubt. I just happen to live in some 70s shithole with cauliflower ceiling, hollow walls, carpet, glass windows all over, babies, cars/road, etc. It's atrocious. So I'm not investing in that gear here and do think it would be a waste.
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I think you should try it. That's what's wrong with your assumptions - you haven't even tried it. Have you?

That's a huge problem in general at this site now - no one tries anything anymore. They ask a ton of inane questions, they try to rationalize and understand things, they over-analyze everything, but they never actually fucking try anything. They think they have answers to things they have never even tried. All people have to do is try. How the fuck were mixes ever done by anyone before this site existed? :eek::laughings:
 
Look...if you're fighting airplanes taking off and trucks or trains zipping by your window, you're going to have a lot more recording problems than just being able to isolate yourself from all that noise with a pair of headphones so you can mix.

But you can't take an extreme room situation like that, and than broadly come to the conclusion that people who sell you monitors, should say up front that they won't work in all situations, as though the sales people would even think someone was recording next the airport/highway/train station as a norm...and then from that, you draw the conclusion that they're just ripping you off by selling you monitors when they won't work well in that situation. :)

You're like connecting the dots in what would be or is a very unusual recording situation to then draw a general conclusion about monitors and monitor sales.

No one here is talking about noise isolation solutions...we're talking about mixing capability and translation to playback systems.
I mean...if you really have noise issues...then even mixing with open-back headphones isn't really much of a solution....and yes, when I use to use headphones almost all the time...tracking and mixing...man, I would stop after 6-8 hours, and my head would be spinning and sore from both ear fatigue and from the damn headphones on my head...which then also creates a negative effect on decisions.

Bottom line...headphones may be a necessary evil and an only option...but at best, they are a poorer solution used to fix an already poor situation in the room.
 
Wait, where are there salespeople selling monitors? Where is this monitor store? And if you are actually monitor shopping with an actual salesperson present, or any kind of shopping, isn't it the buyer's responsibility to know some basic stuff first? A salesperson's job is to sell. Everyone walks around with a computer in their pocket. Do your own research.
 
Greg_L said:
I think you should try it. That's what's wrong with your assumptions - you haven't even tried it. Have you?

That's a huge problem in general at this site now - no one tries anything anymore. They ask a ton of inane questions, they try to rationalize and understand things, they over-analyze everything, but they never actually fucking try anything. They think they have answers to things they have never even tried. All people have to do is try. How the fuck were mixes ever done by anyone before this site existed? :eek::laughings:
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No I admit I haven't tried it in this apartment, but there are reasons (not excuses but reasons I find valid and skew risk/reward), like I have a stereo system in the living room, and it sounds like ass, and I've used monitors years ago, so I have an idea of what it would sound like. If I were unhappy with my headphone mixes I probably would try it, and I plan to try it when I move. I know monitors will be better than headphones in a good space. I know it. This area is just so pricey so I need to get out of here so I can afford a house and make noise. 1brs apts rent for over 2k here. Houses are out of the question.

Anyone reading this thread: if you live in a good space get monitors and use them in conjunction with headphones. If your space sucks, assess it all and consider only headphones.
 
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Okay I want to get back to recording/practicing now not argue or even discuss any of this because it's a waste of time. If my options are to record/practice or discuss speaker salesman I'm going for the former! I think we basically agree anyway that monitors are better in good rooms. You guys think they're better in bad rooms, and I disagree that's always true, and I'd just tell any future reader to really think that through before spending money or find a place with a good return policy.
 
I guess the question then would be...what do you think is a "good room"...?...because if the only thing that would qualify is a purpose-built studio, with proper acoustics design and treatment...it would pretty much mean that 99% of home rec rooms are not good, therefor everyone should ignore monitors.

The better question would be what's a really bad room, where monitors would simply be impossible to work with.

Regardless...phones in a bad room aren't really going to make much difference anyway, since just about everything done in a bad room will be affected, unless you're working entirely with synths and "beats" kind of stuff...where the room never comes into play.

Nola said:
Okay I want to get back to recording/practicing now...
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Who's stopping you? ;) :)

Sounds like a good idea.
 
Nola said:
That's exactly true from my experience.

I refuse to buy monitors until I mix in a good, treated room. Until then, I'm convinced good (open back/flat response) headphones are a better option and just spend a huge amount of time to get to know them well. I think the people selling gear want us to believe we need monitors. In a real studio with a great room they're probably great, but home recorders in bad rooms don't need monitors.

That being said, if I ever move into a great space, I do plan to get nice monitors. In that case, they're great.
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Since the above post quoted me, I think I should pop in with a few words.

Yes, you can learn how to mix on headphones and, yes, the acoustics of the room certainly do affect what you hear if you go to monitors.

However, the same thing and same learning curve applies. In an untreated room with poor acoustics you can still teach yourself what things need to sound like on monitors and mix quite successfully. Indeed, I find the learning curve for monitors to be quicker and easier than with headphones. I still haven't found that scientific paper I mentioned about the psycho-acoustic problems of mixing on headphones but at least monitors (even in a poor room) don't add the way you perceive a close up source vs. a distant one to the equation.

Even in the professional world with control rooms acoustically treated by specialists, there's a need to get familiar with new monitors or a new environment. It's part of the job.

Finally, a note on sales people. Basically, I ignore them except for haggling over price. I do my own research and know what I want long before I get to a store--and if the sales person tries too hard to convince me I need something different I either laugh in his face or walk out.
 
Having the left and right channels isolated on each ear changes things in the stereo field, so it can be hard for headphone mixes to translate to speakers.
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Mono too... IMO/E, if there is a *need* for isolation -- Dialing in on clicks, pops, noise, anomalies, private listening, etc., headphones are indispensable in a less-than-ideal space. Editing - There you go. Headphones, go nuts.

Otherwise... Keep 'em.
 
Massive Master said:
Mono too... IMO/E, if there is a *need* for isolation -- Dialing in on clicks, pops, noise, anomalies, private listening, etc., headphones are indispensable in a less-than-ideal space. Editing - There you go. Headphones, go nuts.

Otherwise... Keep 'em.
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Sometimes people make a decision and want to hear that it's the best one they could have made. Sometimes it is................and sometimes people who made the same decision (but learned from experience) chime in to say that it wasn't a good one.
 
Massive Master said:
You can go to pretty crazy extremes on cans and still sound "fine" -- Extremes that won't work on speakers.

Pretty nasty sounding stuff can sound perfectly reasonable on headphones. It doesn't usually work the other way around.
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Don't know what YOU mean with Pretty nasty sounding stuff but I think I agree. Huge differences in level between two signals can sound acceptable on headphones, but won't on monitors.
 
The answer to this might be changing a little bit, because more people listen to music in headphones than they used to. The rule of thumb I always was told was never to trust headphones to mix something, only to check the way a mix sounds in a different medium.
 
A mix that sounds fine on speakers will translate to headphones, but it doesn't always work the other way around. That's the real problem with that idea.
 
I have a bad room with really low ceilings. No room treatment....my monitors are Sanusi stereo speakers from the late 1980s. But, I do have some half way decent mics. My isolation room is 8' X 8' cube made of pallets, covered with linoleum tile, and carpet on the floor ans walls...with 6' 9" ceiling. My double glass soundproof isolation room window is made out of 2 salvage yard sliding glass patio doors I made the ceiling out of those thick cardboard watermelon boxes. You're not supposed to be able to record decent drum sounds in a little matchbox cubicle like that...but I have experimented with mics, and mic placement, sought advice from experienced members and ultimately I am getting some good drum recordings. I have managed to do some, what I consider, pretty good mixes also...to spite what I'm up against. I sit in front of my speakers and there is no bass. I go over to the corner and listen and there is too much bass. I know what the problem is and what the solutions are because I have read hundreds of posts about room treatment. I have to mix something and then play it in several different systems to boil it down to a good mix. My main problem is the bass. I can't get a handle on it in my room.
I said all that to say this. I am going to guitar center this evening to pick up a set of headphones. I will still reference my mixes on my speakers, play them back through several systems, and probably post them on this site to get feedback from others (very important). I just feel like a decent set of phones will help me mix the low end content that's next to impossible with the speakers and room I have now.

I'm torn between the senny 280s and the audio technical m-50's.

I have a pair of Sony 7506s and one side went out after about 4 months...100 bucks down the drain.
 
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The 280's will have more low end than the Sonys. The Sonys are good for tracking vocals because they are so mid-forward.
 
Farview said:
The 280's will have more low end than the Sonys. The Sonys are good for tracking vocals because they are so mid-forward.
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I liked the sonys. I just got miffed when one side went out in less than 6 months. For no apparent reason too. I babied those fuckers. Careful not to accidently yank them off my head by getting the cord tangled up and such.
I have cheap ass $15 phones that I throw around like a football and they NEVER quit.

Anyway...

are you familiar with the audio technica ATH-M50 phones?
 
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