dobro
Well-known member
Educate me, please. What's the difference between an editor and a sequencer? What can one do that the other can't? And how do they compare to samplers?
T
tdukex
Man of the Muse
Sequencers are used for recording MIDI sequences. Most also incorporate audio tracking as well (Sonar, Cubase, Logic, etc.) MIDI is recorded as a "sequence" of "commands," thus you have a sequencer. Vegas is a an audio tracker only, so I don't consider it a sequencer. You can kind of look at a sequencer/tracker is the digital equivalent of an analog recording deck.
Editors (Sound Forge, Wave Lab, etc.) allow you to take the waveform you have just recorded and "edit" it. For example, in Sound Forge I can magnify a wave for 8-10 times to find a trouble spot (spike, e.g.) and remove the spike by redrawing the wave. Or if a certain part of the track needs the volume lowered or increased I can do this with precision. An audio editor will have capabilities such as performing fades, cross fades, normalization, muting, pan and expand, time stretch , smooth and enhance, DC offset, resample. Editors also come with lots of effects and this is where your plug-ins such as compression, EQ, and reverb are appled.
Samplers allow you to load pre-recorded samples of let's say a Steinway Grand piano and then use a MIDI controller like a keyboard to play the samples back. So I can load up an orchestral sample and record a world class bassoon. There's more to samplers than I know, though. I haven't used one.
Editors (Sound Forge, Wave Lab, etc.) allow you to take the waveform you have just recorded and "edit" it. For example, in Sound Forge I can magnify a wave for 8-10 times to find a trouble spot (spike, e.g.) and remove the spike by redrawing the wave. Or if a certain part of the track needs the volume lowered or increased I can do this with precision. An audio editor will have capabilities such as performing fades, cross fades, normalization, muting, pan and expand, time stretch , smooth and enhance, DC offset, resample. Editors also come with lots of effects and this is where your plug-ins such as compression, EQ, and reverb are appled.
Samplers allow you to load pre-recorded samples of let's say a Steinway Grand piano and then use a MIDI controller like a keyboard to play the samples back. So I can load up an orchestral sample and record a world class bassoon. There's more to samplers than I know, though. I haven't used one.
SPINSTERWUN
Active member
I think tdukex wrapped it up in a mouthful. 
spin
spin
dobro
Well-known member
Yeah, excellent description, tdukex.
So, Sonar and Cubase are more powerful progs for tracking than Vegas or Cool Edit, because they can track either midi or audio. Okay, which programs do it all? Track and edit either midi or audio?
As for sampling, although I haven't tried it, Cool Edit claims it can be used as a sampler (but Cool Edit isn't midi-friendly). So does that mean that samplers can operate in either midi mode or otherwise?
So, Sonar and Cubase are more powerful progs for tracking than Vegas or Cool Edit, because they can track either midi or audio. Okay, which programs do it all? Track and edit either midi or audio?
As for sampling, although I haven't tried it, Cool Edit claims it can be used as a sampler (but Cool Edit isn't midi-friendly). So does that mean that samplers can operate in either midi mode or otherwise?
T
tdukex
Man of the Muse
Dobro, I can't think of any programs that "track" and "edit." I know Sonar has added looping capability, and that's something. I use Cakewalk for tracking/MIDI (free copy), Soundforge 5 ($99.00) to edit, and ACID Pro 2 ($70.00) for loops. I'm a very patient shopper and wait until I get very good deals before buying. That's why I still haven't forked out the $ for a sequencer.
IMO you need a good tracker and a good editor.
As for your sampler/MIDI question, someone more knowledgable than I will have to answer that. You might also check ProRec.com. I know they have reviewed several there.
IMO you need a good tracker and a good editor.
As for your sampler/MIDI question, someone more knowledgable than I will have to answer that. You might also check ProRec.com. I know they have reviewed several there.
dobro
Well-known member
Cool Edit tracks and edits. But it's very unhappy with MIDI.
T
tdukex
Man of the Muse
My advice to you, if you want to use MIDI, is to dump Cool Edit and go with either Sonar, Cubase, or Logic. I gave my copy of Cool Edit away.
Kelly Holdridge
New member
NOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo.........................
Sorry. Obligatory "I've only used this one program and you can't possibly say it sucks because I've used it to do lots of cool shit on it" response.
Sorry. Obligatory "I've only used this one program and you can't possibly say it sucks because I've used it to do lots of cool shit on it" response.
S
struberg
charhizma mb
I do: Logic Audio Platinum 4.7 is able to track with up to 24bit/96kHz, is (one of) the best Midi-sequencer and in addition it has a sampler plugin (called EXS24).
I think Cubase does similar the same things when bundled with gigasampler...
Btw: the real big difference in arranging a track with either Samplitude, CoolEdit, Acid,... and a Sampler is the ability to modulate/filter/synthesize the original wave loop.
Audio-Arranging:
pros: Easy to use; take your snapshot (sample) and clue it to a different position; burns directly to cd
cons: No way to play it live on your keyboard; no LFO's, poor filters, hard to create accords
Sampler usage:
pros: use it like your synth; All the filters you will ever need, different LFO's, velocity sense, multisamples, pagesamples; On good samplers u can use your waves like any other waveform to do some additive/subtractive/frequency/formant - modulation; use your keyboard
cons: USING A SAMPLER IS A 2-STEP THING: first you have to create your samples and then u can use it. This sounds clear, but in real live it's a little bit tricky for beginners...
Summary (my personal oppinions):
If you only need to arrange a drum part with samples, go for acid,...
If you have a complete track to do or you need fader automation on your song, then go for Logic or Cubase
cheers,
Mark
dobro
Well-known member
"Btw: the real big difference in arranging a track with either Samplitude, CoolEdit, Acid,... and a Sampler is the ability to modulate/filter/synthesize the original wave loop."
So, editors and samplers are basically the same, except that samplers work with loops more precisely, more easily, more usefully, and more elegantly?
So, editors and samplers are basically the same, except that samplers work with loops more precisely, more easily, more usefully, and more elegantly?
A
Alchemist3k
New member
Anyone used the Steinberg Halion.
Basically right now I use NI Synamo which has some synth that can incorporate samples. This is cool as I record samples of guitar, put them into the synth and then I can play that sample at different pitches which is cool for an industrial sound. Thing is that although the pitch changes depending where I play the note on the keyboard the playback speed also changes which is a downside imo.
What I want to know is if I bought the Halion can it do that and also can it play the sample at different pitches WITHOUT changing the playback speed?
Basically right now I use NI Synamo which has some synth that can incorporate samples. This is cool as I record samples of guitar, put them into the synth and then I can play that sample at different pitches which is cool for an industrial sound. Thing is that although the pitch changes depending where I play the note on the keyboard the playback speed also changes which is a downside imo.
What I want to know is if I bought the Halion can it do that and also can it play the sample at different pitches WITHOUT changing the playback speed?
drstawl
Banned
Editor is too broad a term. You can edit MIDI files, you can edit .wav files. Shit- you can edit .doc files or .txt files or VB scripts or .avi files etc. etc. etc.
Perry White is an Editor.
And don't call me Chief!
Actually Vegas Pro has limited editing features while tracking quite nicely.
Perry White is an Editor.
And don't call me Chief!
Actually Vegas Pro has limited editing features while tracking quite nicely.
T
tdukex
Man of the Muse
Drstawl, MIDI is edited within a MIDI sequencer, not an audio editor. The editors we are talking about are audio "waveform" editors. You are right, though, I probably should have been more clear.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Read my first post again!
Samplers use digital audio samples, not loops. A sampler is like a synthesizer except instead of synthesizing sounds (single notes) itself, you load prerecorded sounds (samples) into the sampler to play.
Looping programs use prerecorded loops that you paste together to make a track.
Editors edit digital audio as described in my first post.
dobro said:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Read my first post again!
Samplers use digital audio samples, not loops. A sampler is like a synthesizer except instead of synthesizing sounds (single notes) itself, you load prerecorded sounds (samples) into the sampler to play.
Looping programs use prerecorded loops that you paste together to make a track.
Editors edit digital audio as described in my first post.
drstawl
Banned
>The editors we are talking about are
What's this "we" shit?
I was talking about the term "editor" that dobro brought up in the first post in this thread. Sure- .mid files can be edited by a program called a "sequencer" but Cakewalk is not just a sequencer. It's been a .mid editor AND a .wav editor since version 5 or 6 depending on whether you accept ver 5 as really doing both.
My point was that the term "editor" is too loose to have any real meaning.
The term "sequencer" is a little tighter but still can be confused with a program or HW based device that just plays back MIDI commands.
>Samplers use digital audio samples, not loops
Isn't a sample just a short loop that's been modified to create a SET of loops depending on the pitch and velocity applied to it?
What's this "we" shit?
I was talking about the term "editor" that dobro brought up in the first post in this thread. Sure- .mid files can be edited by a program called a "sequencer" but Cakewalk is not just a sequencer. It's been a .mid editor AND a .wav editor since version 5 or 6 depending on whether you accept ver 5 as really doing both.
My point was that the term "editor" is too loose to have any real meaning.
The term "sequencer" is a little tighter but still can be confused with a program or HW based device that just plays back MIDI commands.
>Samplers use digital audio samples, not loops
Isn't a sample just a short loop that's been modified to create a SET of loops depending on the pitch and velocity applied to it?
S
struberg
charhizma mb
Nope, samplers also can use looped audio samples, and furthermore they are not only able to loop the whole audio sample, but to loop parts of the sample while the key is held down. If you release the key, the sample runs to the end. I can't imagine a waveeditor doing this, and this is only one mode out of many.
In my opinion, the whole audioeditor thing is only usefull for say drum programming and voice samples, but not for 'hardcore' usage.
There are only a few samplers on the market with realtime pitch shifting ability. I'm sure about the Akai S5000/6000 and the Creamware STS5000
SPINSTERWUN
Active member
Vegas Audio 2.0 tracks both MIDI and audio.
T
tdukex
Man of the Muse
SPINSTERWUN said:
Vegas Audio 2.0 tracks both MIDI and audio.
Spin, I'm not sure what you mean.
Can you elaborate? Vegas 2.0 does not have a MIDI sequencer.
drstawl
Banned
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/products/NewShowProduct.asp?PID=334&FeatureID=2914&FeatureTL=2910
Vegas Audio 2.0 supports MIDI Time Code synchronization. This is
a far cry from even a sequencer. The above link shows all the supported file formats within Vegas Audio 2.0.
NOTE: .mid is NOT among them.
Vegas Audio 2.0 supports MIDI Time Code synchronization. This is
a far cry from even a sequencer. The above link shows all the supported file formats within Vegas Audio 2.0.
NOTE: .mid is NOT among them.
C
charger
New member
you're all confused... or this is a topic that is just confusing... or... what time is it?
An audio editor in the strictest sense would be something like wavelab or Soundforge where you can edit and manipulate mono or stereo tracks.
Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools and others are all what I would consider DAWs, or digital audio workstations. You use them as workstations to create (through MIDI and/or recording/tracking audio), mix, and arrange music.
A pure MIDI sequencer is analogous to a single or multi-track recorder, except that it records MIDI notes instead of audio. Practically every app that used to be a pure MIDI sequencer (cubase, logic, anyone remember vision?) now supports audio well enough that you could no longer consider it solely a sequencer.
There is another category of programs called "trackers" (I have no idea why they're called this) which are neither here nor there. This includes programs like Buzz, Orion, and FruityLoops, which are basically pattern-based sample playback systems, usually with integrated sound generators (e.g. softsynths) that allow you to arrange patterns into songs. So basically, they're like sample-capable MIDI sequencers with the MIDI synths and effects built in.
An audio editor in the strictest sense would be something like wavelab or Soundforge where you can edit and manipulate mono or stereo tracks.
Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools and others are all what I would consider DAWs, or digital audio workstations. You use them as workstations to create (through MIDI and/or recording/tracking audio), mix, and arrange music.
A pure MIDI sequencer is analogous to a single or multi-track recorder, except that it records MIDI notes instead of audio. Practically every app that used to be a pure MIDI sequencer (cubase, logic, anyone remember vision?) now supports audio well enough that you could no longer consider it solely a sequencer.
There is another category of programs called "trackers" (I have no idea why they're called this) which are neither here nor there. This includes programs like Buzz, Orion, and FruityLoops, which are basically pattern-based sample playback systems, usually with integrated sound generators (e.g. softsynths) that allow you to arrange patterns into songs. So basically, they're like sample-capable MIDI sequencers with the MIDI synths and effects built in.
dobro
Well-known member
I wouldn't call Fruity a tracker, I'd call it a beats program.
But I've been reading an article in Electronic Musician about software samplers. The guy who wrote it pointed out that it would be more descriptive to call these programs sample players or sample processors. I'm so new to sampling that I can't appreciate exactly what a sampler can do that an editor can't. To some extent, it seems to depend on the particular editor and sampler you're looking at. Cool Edit can deal to a certain extent with loops, for instance, but nobody calls Cool Edit a sampler.
So, there's some overlap, right? Some programs have a tracking function. Some can handle tracking audio, some midi, and some both (Cakewalk). Some of those programs can also carry out various editing functions to various degrees of usefulness. And some of them can even carry out simple sampling functions, but usually those tasks are left to dedicated sampler plugins and programs. And even in the area of samplers, there are odd beat-based programs like Fruity.
So, categories of programs exist, but how useful are they? So rather than try to categorize a program as this or that type of program, is it more useful to think in terms of the functions any particular program can carry out?
But I've been reading an article in Electronic Musician about software samplers. The guy who wrote it pointed out that it would be more descriptive to call these programs sample players or sample processors. I'm so new to sampling that I can't appreciate exactly what a sampler can do that an editor can't. To some extent, it seems to depend on the particular editor and sampler you're looking at. Cool Edit can deal to a certain extent with loops, for instance, but nobody calls Cool Edit a sampler.
So, there's some overlap, right? Some programs have a tracking function. Some can handle tracking audio, some midi, and some both (Cakewalk). Some of those programs can also carry out various editing functions to various degrees of usefulness. And some of them can even carry out simple sampling functions, but usually those tasks are left to dedicated sampler plugins and programs. And even in the area of samplers, there are odd beat-based programs like Fruity.
So, categories of programs exist, but how useful are they? So rather than try to categorize a program as this or that type of program, is it more useful to think in terms of the functions any particular program can carry out?