Dynamics on kick

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noisedude

noisedude

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Ok quick question. I know i can't use condensers on kick unless i want to 'accidentally' retire a C1000S or something. but can i use standard dynamics? i.e. is there anything inherently different in kick mics that means they can absorb a higher SPL or is the larger diaphragm just for resonance on frequencies pertinent to typical bass drums and other bass sounds?

also, is the AT pro 25 *really* a good mic, or is it a stopgap mic. if one was to purchase it, would it be worth having years down the line or would one be left with a feeling of dissatisfaction at not having saved up a la behringer?
 
This is my take on the whole situation (but I might be misguided in some situations)

You can put a condensor on a kick as long as it far enough away and you put a pop filter on it you should be ok.

A condensor cannot handle the high spl because the "member" (not sure what the technical term is) that picks up the vibrations is very thin, and can rip when exposed to high spl.

Many people really like the atm pro 25. I have never used it personally.
 
noisedude said:
Ok quick question. I know i can't use condensers on kick unless i want to 'accidentally' retire a C1000S or something.
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That's not entirely accurate. It may not be best for it's long-term health, but you should be able to get several years of use out of a condenser on kick before it craps out. You need to put a wind screen in front of it, though, to protect it from the constant air blasts which can stress out the diaphragm.

i.e. is there anything inherently different in kick mics that means they can absorb a higher SPL or is the larger diaphragm just for resonance on frequencies pertinent to typical bass drums and other bass sounds?
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Yea, pretty much. That's not to say that only dedicated kick mics are good for kick, or that kick mics aren't good for other things. The most popular kick mic of all time is probably the Electrovoice RE-20 . . . which was never even designed as a kick mic in the first place, per se. It just happens to be really good in that role. Ditto for the Beyer M88 and a few others.


also, is the AT pro 25 *really* a good mic, or is it a stopgap mic. if one was to purchase it, would it be worth having years down the line or would one be left with a feeling of dissatisfaction at not having saved up a la behringer?
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That's a good question, and the only way to answer it is to use one yourself. But you should be able to get good, usable, kick drum tracks with one. If you can't, then you need to polish up on your engineering/mixing skills, or take up another hoby or something. :D I know of a lot of very popular commercial studios that use it's big brother, the ATM25, which is supposed to be very similar.
 
noisedude said:
also, is the AT pro 25 *really* a good mic, or is it a stopgap mic.
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I recommand the Audio-technical ATM25 instead... you should be able to find one for about $80 on ebay.
 
i've used a pro25 on several occasions and couldn't get a usable sound out of it in the least on my kick in a variety of rooms. the mic was a rental, so it's possible it had just been beaten to death (it looked it). but based on that, I don't plan on ever picking one up.

currently i use an RE38 for kick, and it does quite a fine job. it was considerably more than the pro25 costs, though.

bottom line, YMWV.


wade
 
The AT Pro 25 IS a good mic and makes an acceptible kick mic, but I like my ATM25 much better(better signal, rounder, fuller). I use the AT Pro 25 on one of my floor toms and it really shines there.
You have to decide what kind of voice you want to hear coming from your drums and hear which mics give you the sound you want. Each mic acts differently and takes the sound differently. There really aren't very many "BAD" mics, because each mic will do at least "something" well. The trick is, using the right mic for the job. Even a really crappy Redio Shack cassette recorder mic can give you a signal that you can use if you are trying to emulate a voice over a telephone or a train station announcement. Just don't use it if you want a quality musical signal.

The AudioTechnica Kick mics tend to be warmer and more round in tone than let's say a Beta 52. You may want that punchy "in your face" rock kick sound and you won't get that automatically with an AT mic, but you can adjust it by doing other things in your signal chain or placement of the mic or usig a rigid or metal badge on your kick head.

BTW Audio Technica makes a dual element kick mic ($400.+) that uses a condenser and a dynamic cartridge.
I have yet to use one, but the reports on it are favorable. So you CAN use condensers on a kick.
 
different mics for different ballgames. rimshot and i have discussed this mic before--he does a lot of jazz and related, so his kick sound is generally more open and big (think coated heads).....whereas i do more rock, so my kick is much more punchy than a jazz kick.

the pro25 just didn't give me any of the things i was looking for. i can imagine it would be good on a jazz kick, or a floor tom or maybe a bass cab. it just didn't cut it for a rock kick for me.


wade
 
sae said:

A condensor cannot handle the high spl because the "member" (not sure what the technical term is) that picks up the vibrations is very thin, and can rip when exposed to high spl.
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- Membrane

- It doesnt 'rip', more likely short out the capacitance by touching the other side of the diaphragm.


Sorry to be pedantic.........
 
mrface2112 said:
the pro25 just didn't give me any of the things i was looking for. i can imagine it would be good on a jazz kick, or a floor tom or maybe a bass cab. it just didn't cut it for a rock kick for me.
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I like my pro25. OTOH, I hated the EV RE20 on kick. There just wasn't enough low end for me.
 
mrface2112 said:
different mics for different ballgames. rimshot and i have discussed this mic before--he does a lot of jazz and related, so his kick sound is generally more open and big (think coated heads).....whereas i do more rock, so my kick is much more punchy than a jazz kick.

the pro25 just didn't give me any of the things i was looking for. i can imagine it would be good on a jazz kick, or a floor tom or maybe a bass cab. it just didn't cut it for a rock kick for me.


wade
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I kind of agree with you here. I wasn't clear in my post when I was referring to the AT mic, I really meant the ATM25 which is a very different animal to the AT Pro 25.
I have used the AT Pro 25 with some success on kick and it really does work well on my floor toms but it pales next to its big brother the ATM25 as a kick mic. I do play mostly jaz and blues, so I'm looking for a different tone. If I were to be playing hard rock and metal all of the time, I would probably opt for the Audix D6 or as a second choice, the Beta 52 which I don't like as much but it does give you that sound.
A mic that can work many different ways is the AKG D112. It is very changeable depending on placement, more than any other kick mic is. I never liked it as much until a really good sound engineer placed it differently on a session, and damned, if it didn't sound great.
An EV RE 20 is a favorite kick mic for a lot of blues and jazz drummers. I don't know too many rock drummers that use it. I personally can't afford it. (Maybe when I get with a major recording group and play gigs at the Blue Note regularly and get the endorsements....Nah, I'm in my 50's, that ain't gonna happen.:( ) So the ATM25 is my happy choice.
 
I have STILL!! not had a chance to try my RE20 on kick.

Its my "good" dynamic.

I have heard that for a condenser, the CAD Equitek 100 is supposed to be a kick ass kick mic.

-mike
 
an RE20 is definitely in my future. used, they're really not too terribly pricey. i can afford $350 for a great mic, ya know? although to be honest, an SM7 is much closer on the horizon--i've got a bit of a thin nasally voice (think neil young) and that seems to be the the "common cure-all" for that malady. won't help my lack of singing ability, though.

i've been pretty thrilled with my RE38 on kick and vocals. i haven't been able to find too much info about it anywhere, though, so i can't do it justice here as to exactly what's behind it. :p it gives me a decent thump and enough click that it usually cuts through fine with a little bit of eq and compression.

i'm really looking hard at the senn e602 and will pounce on one if i can ever find one used for cheap enough--seems they hold their value pretty well. i really like the sound of that mic (much more than the d112 or beta52), but then again, i have a feeling that it's more of a one-trick pony (meaning mostly suited for rock), but that's ok with me.

really, there's no right answer. or rather, the right answer is "whatever works best on your kick in your room in the context of the song and mix". kinda like everything else, really. :D


wade
 
that's all good but tell me this - can i use a standard dynamic on kick without fear of damage? i understand the structure of mics so i can see why a dynamic can in theory take a higher spl but i want to know if in practice i'm likely to deteriorate a perfectly good mic in the meantime of getting a dedicated one.
 
Dynamic can take whatever you throw at it, save perhaps another dynamic
In His Name
BK
 
Personally I'm all in favour of using a C1000S as a Kick mic. Just make sure you get it good and close to where the beater hits :D
 
noisedude said:
that's all good but tell me this - can i use a standard dynamic on kick without fear of damage? i understand the structure of mics so i can see why a dynamic can in theory take a higher spl but i want to know if in practice i'm likely to deteriorate a perfectly good mic in the meantime of getting a dedicated one.
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If you mean something like a Shure SM58... no, it will NOT hurt it.
 
marvellous. i didn't think it was likely to but i watched someone use an expensive LDC on kick once "because it's my best mic and i need a good kick sound" (fool) and he did indeed short the capacitor. i've been ultra-careful with my gear since - i'm still terrified every time i switch phantom power on or off..........
 
Noise Dude,

In this lower price range I have been very happy with my Beta 52 which I got new for $135.

I have been recording with it right on the outside of the kick pointed 2 inches down from beater with a Shure sm57 way in there pointed right where the beater is hitting. I wind up using about 66% Beta 52 and 34% SM57. I lightly compress the Beta 52 and roll off the lowest of the lows on the 57.

You can hear it on my (rough) mixes here:

Virginia Here: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/rmuttmusic.htm

And everything here:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/danwhitakercountrybandmusic.htm

Hope this is of some help.

Jim

PS: I have also had some luck with my large condensers set 6 feet back from kick about level with the beater. You get a pile of room, but for me it works really nice. There is some of that mixed in to those songs too.
 
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