Dual processor vs. single with Sonar 4

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sandro perri

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hi there,

my head is still spinning from pouring through pages and pages of suggestions i'll use for my upcoming computer purchase (EXTREMELY helpful), but i can't seem to recall finding any clear discussions about the pro's/con's of a dual-processor system vs. a sinlge one. is it true that with something as powerful as a P4 or AMD xp3200, dual-processing is no longer so necessary?

if it helps to know, i'll be running sonar 4 (on WXP). probably not recording more than 4-6 tracks at a time, but layering up to a forseeable 50 tracks (mostly mono), 48kHz, 24-bit. i'd like to be able to mix with waves plugins, using (AT MOST!) eq, reverb or delay, and compression on up to probably between 10-15 at a time, with no dropouts.

am i crazy?

i know it's not ONLY CPU to consider here, but that's mostly it, right? i intend to have a couple of very good harddrives and a gig of ram as well.

any help from people not too exhausted by this endlessly repeating topic would be greatly appreciated!!

cheers,
sandro
 
sandro. i'm a computer engr for more years than i care to remember. there are no perfect answers because every users confign is different.
ie ;;; how you work is different to me. and everybody else.
from your heavy anticipated use of so many plug ins and tracks i might be tempted to suggest an amd64. but on the other hand maybe a normal amd athlon could handle the load. particularly the all 24 bit requirement worries me a bit. but i'm sure you dont necessarily have to go with dual processors.
what i would suggest is you contact cakewalk with your anticipated usage requirements and see what they say. being developers they can probably make a more intelligent suggestion.
i have to say how i get away with a lower amd system is i render track plug ins when i'm happy with them. but this might not suit you.
also i am a believer in using few plug ins. for reasons i wont go into here.
other than i feel there are other alternatives like using creative room ambiences and outboard stuff etc.
 
If you do get Dual CPU's...you will need to get Windows XP pro...not home..or get windows 2000. Windows Home or <98 does not support 2 processors...it will run but they simply will ignore the second cpu.


Also...im not sure if Sonar 4 takes full use of Dual -cpu's.

I doubt you will need 2'cpus...its HARD DRIVE and MEMORY you need if your doing a lot of plugins and tracks.
 
yeah, i certainly agree that using plug-ins is not the best solution, but when i get all heavy on the processor, it's because the room sound is certainly not what i want...

anyway thanks for the tip, i have never contacted cakewalk before but i will try.

if anybody else can shed some light on dual processor pro's/con's, i'm all ears.
 
seryozha said:
If you do get Dual CPU's...you will need to get Windows XP pro...not home..or get windows 2000. Windows Home or <98 does not support 2 processors...it will run but they simply will ignore the second cpu.


Also...im not sure if Sonar 4 takes full use of Dual -cpu's.

I doubt you will need 2'cpus...its HARD DRIVE and MEMORY you need if your doing a lot of plugins and tracks.


thanks, that's good to know. could you possibly expand on what the hard drive has to do with plugin use? or did you mean memory more specifically?

thx.
 
sandro, I don't know enough about how sonar may or may not make use of dual cpus to advise you one way or another.

However I will say that contrary to the last post, the cpu will be your biggest constraint, followed by memory.

As manning points out, it's difficult to give a definitve answer because everyone uses different types & flavours of plugins. Some, like eq, are very light on resources. Others, like reverb, amp simulators or sample triggers are much heavier resource consumers.

In my case I have a P4 2.8 running at 3.5GHz and 1GB ram. I record in 24bit/88.2Khz. My current project has 30 tracks, and uses 27 plugins of varying resource utilisation. It's totally maxed out on this load
- the cpu is running between 85% & 95%, there will be an occasional glitch in the sound and if I change a setting while it's playing, it just stops immediately.

Suffice it to say if you're planning on running 50 tracks with upto 15 plugins, get the fastest cpu you can afford.
 
Hi Sandro,
Could you point me in the direction of the thread where people made all those useful suggestions?

I, too, am in Toronto, and would appreciate swapping 'notes' about good places (and not so good places) to buy/check out systems. I'd be happy to share what I've discovered with you if you're up for it.

You can find a 'phone number for me at www.CollaborativeTherapy.com

All the best,

Geert
 
gvdv said:
Hi Sandro,
Could you point me in the direction of the thread where people made all those useful suggestions?

I, too, am in Toronto, and would appreciate swapping 'notes' about good places (and not so good places) to buy/check out systems. I'd be happy to share what I've discovered with you if you're up for it.

You can find a 'phone number for me at www.CollaborativeTherapy.com

All the best,

Geert

***non-torontonians need not read***

hi geert,

i'll see what i can dig up again, though i didn't bookmark anything. mostly, i just went throught the homerecording.com archives (start at the last page as opposed to the first, and you'll get the most current info) and looked for relevant subject headers. anything to do with cpu, hardrive, soundcards, stuff like that. also, i didn't get any regional-specific information at all. as far as where i will go, i think SONNAM at college/spadina is my choice. they say that if i give them a list of the stuff i want, they'll put it all together for me for $40, while doing their best to double check that it is all compatible. i figure if i do the lion's share of research on this, i *should* be safe...i've had no problems with that shop since i started going about 4 years ago. another place which i've heard has fantastic service is FILTECH (again on spadina, but just south of college, east side). as well, there is SAVED BY TECHNOLOGY, which i've heard mixed things about. apparently the service is atrocious. but they probably could put together a killer system for you (if you don't mind paying a little extra).

feel free to contact me for any other questions/discussions.

sandro
 
sandro perri said:
yeah, i certainly agree that using plug-ins is not the best solution, but when i get all heavy on the processor, it's because the room sound is certainly not what i want...

anyway thanks for the tip, i have never contacted cakewalk before but i will try.

if anybody else can shed some light on dual processor pro's/con's, i'm all ears.

Running dual processors add to the PC noise since you will need two cooling fans blowing on the heatsinks. As far as track count, that will be determined by how fast your hard drives are. To take the load off the processor (so you can run only one) I suggest getting the TC Electronic Powercore card. It has it's own processor to run the plugins.
 
Parlor Music said:
As far as track count, that will be determined by how fast your hard drives are. .

An ordinary hard drive capable of sustained 50MB/s transfer will drive over 150 tracks at 24/96.

The cpu will give up the ghost long before that
 
Bulls Hit said:
An ordinary hard drive capable of sustained 50MB/s transfer will drive over 150 tracks at 24/96.

The cpu will give up the ghost long before that

"Sustained" transfer rate is the key. IDE drives are rated at 'burst' rate, while SCSI drives are rated at 'sustained'. Most any 7200rpm or higher IDE drives will handle most tracking chores. I recommend Seagate Barracuda with the 8Mb buffer for performance and silent operation.
 
i'm spec'ing a new PC now.

abit motherboard with 3.2ghz P4, [200mhz x 4] fsb, 1gb ddr ram, 2 x 40gb 10,000 rpm ide drives (one for apps, one for tracks)
 
crosstudio said:
i'm spec'ing a new PC now.

abit motherboard with 3.2ghz P4, [200mhz x 4] fsb, 1gb ddr ram, 2 x 40gb 10,000 rpm ide drives (one for apps, one for tracks)

Are you sure 40GB will be enough for your audio? If you're going to be doing 24bit recording, it's amazing how quickly you chew through space. In my case that would last me about a year
 
I used to use a dual-CPU DAW, and the only reason I'm not using one now is because I got an Athlon XP and mobo for free. Regardless of whether or not Sonar makes great use of more than processor, the upside is that your system will nearly always remain responsive. Plus, if you're using a bunch of DirectX plugins, I believe those processes are handled by Windows, hence threaded however Windows sees fit, ie, both processors will get used.
 
crosstudio said:
i'm spec'ing a new PC now.

abit motherboard with 3.2ghz P4, [200mhz x 4] fsb, 1gb ddr ram, 2 x 40gb 10,000 rpm ide drives (one for apps, one for tracks)

I'm thinking about a mobo with onboard SATA raid controller and two 40GB 10000rpm SATA drives in raid 0 configuration for audio data and a single 60GB ide drive for apps and OS.
 
PeteHalo said:
I'm thinking about a mobo with onboard SATA raid controller and two 40GB 10000rpm SATA drives in raid 0 configuration for audio data and a single 60GB ide drive for apps and OS.

For another $20 or so you could get a 120GB drive instead of the 60GB, and you could back up your audio data onto it.

With raid 0, if one drive fries, you lose everything
 
Heres Illas spin on it

First of all...Im an AMD person so im biased right from the start...money versus function blah blah blah...

ok remember the guys post about how he uses ..well heres the quote

"In my case I have a P4 2.8 running at 3.5GHz and 1GB ram. I record in 24bit/88.2Khz. My current project has 30 tracks, and uses 27 plugins of varying resource utilisation. It's totally maxed out on this load
- the cpu is running between 85% & 95%,"

Ok he's using a single Pentium Processor...but he neglected to mention if he's using hyperthreading...

anyways...

I have projects right up there with 30 tracks and more like 40 or 50 fx plugins total, including inserts, send fx, and mastering buss fx, with bussed fx etc ..and vstis etc.. this is done at 32 bit/44.1 khz...i usually get around 40 to 50 percent cpu usage in Cubase VST with this kind of load...if Sonar is truly better optimized than Cubase...then the load should be lower in Sonar ...but either way my system is far from crippled...However since the other guy records at 88.1 khz...that explains his high cpu usage...me im not really big on higher sampling rates...IE i dont record higher than 44.1 khz...since i use 32 bit depth im quite pleased with my results...

but moving along..

The real benefit at this point of having dual processors would be the other things you can do with your computer under heavy loads...like use the web burn cds etc...

Now bear in mind i can do this while im using cubase at the moment with my Yummy AMD chip...however....the big boost in dual comes from In my opinion the mixdown phase!

Imagine having two cpus...with one being used just for dsp or the duty spread evenly between them however you scheme it out...but now because you only are using 25% or so of your cpu power you get like a 30 to 45 second wait time for a mixdown to two track on a 5 minute song? With those same 30 tracks and 50 plus plug ins and instruments? Thats what sold it for me with dual..

However.....its a momentary truth that AMD has better technology in and out for DAWS....If it be because of the floating point math..the future promise of 64 bit prowess or just the damn endorsements I mean come on Skywalker Ranch is outfitted with a 140 count em 140 AMD Opteron server room/ render farm, along with 60 dual processor workstations that are powered by Opterons as well.

and I mean George Lucas of ILM/Star Wars fame's Skywalker Ranch...yeah big boys with big toys...but with AMD you have your hands on similar if not the same technology... You could build a dual Opteron System for use with Sonar and it would be most beastly thing out...Go to the sonar forum at cakewalks site...they have done a test called the Sonar Test....Dual Opterons whip the living daylights out of anything smoking right now...at least when it comes to Sonar...

Me Im still very functional with just one cpu....

BTW my specs are AMD XP 2700 333 (2.17 ghz)...2 x 512 MB Sticks of DDR333 ram.., 1 Seagate 80 GB Barracuda 7200 rpm hdrive and 1 160 GB Western Digital Cavia 7200 rpm hdrive..This is all hooked up to a Shuttle AN35N Ultra 400 Motherboard......I love my system...but the other thing we should be really asking is about the render farm idea...

FX teleport is what i really want to get involved in....Dual processors are a reality right now...but even as we speak they are building dual core processors at AMD and at Intel...cramming theoretically twice the power onto one chip!

However...a render farm allows you to harness the power of more than one computer to help you run your DAW...imagine 5 x 2 ghz computers on a network and you get all of their cpu power at your disposal? To me its FAR superior to a multi processor set up because multiprocessors in windows require scheduling and assignments of threads that may limit your bandwidth or how much cpu you can use for dsp depending on your host...whereas FX Teleport allows you just to keep calling up plugins from each computer and you can max each one out...so realistically you could have virtually no fx or instruments running off your main computer and have the slaves doing all the hardwork....realistically...this means your mixdowns should be lightning fast since the master computer that does the rendering has no load on its processor...since all dsp is done on the slaved workstations..I mean hey even 3 computers in that sort of set up just sounds so juicy...and we're not talking alot of money... i mean could you imagine taking your main system like a basic 1.8 or 2 ghz computer which has a good soundcard etc

and using 2 additional computers outfitted with say oh xp 2000 or 2100s which are like 55 dollars a chip or 60 bucks a chip for 1.67 or 1.8 ghz i think...you could slap em on a pc chips mobo for like 40 dollars a piece with onboard video and everything else that you need...add another 40 bucks for ddr ram... maybe the full cost of a barebones fitted with only the essentials runs you around 200 dollars a pop...you dont need large amounts of hard drive space unless you use large sample libraries....but with the render farm your actual cpu power is literally the sum of the cpus bandwidth..so it wont be like oh sometimes dual processors work and sometimes they dont dependin g on the software...NO

If you had this system at your grasp you're talking 2 ghz, plus 2 x 1.67..so 5.34 ghz of power to play with for your DAW....


Also the other reality with the FX Teleport is that you can use MACS as slaves to a pc or PCS as a slave to a MAC...the cross platform we've always wanted has become a reality for Digital audio
Now to me a 5.34 ghz system sounds so much better than just a dual 2ghz system...thats the one thing left out of this whole discussion...this whoops the pants off any single amd or pentium chip out...

Something to consider
Sorry for the rant..but George Lucas is such a spoiled b*tch, such a gearslut he is ;)
Peace
Illa
 
Here's a thumbnail sketch

(From the September issue of the Universal Audio Webzine) Here is the entire article. Click on Support Report.


Single Processor

Musician/Project studio

Soft-synths

MIDI

Sequencing

Real-time monitoring

Lower host plug-in count

Lower track count

Lower latency

Dual Processor

Recording/Editing Studio

Mastering studio

Batch Processing

Higher host plug-in count

Higher track count

Higher latency
 
sandro perri said:
***non-torontonians need not read***

hi geert,

i'll see what i can dig up again, though i didn't bookmark anything. mostly, i just went throught the homerecording.com archives (start at the last page as opposed to the first, and you'll get the most current info) and looked for relevant subject headers. anything to do with cpu, hardrive, soundcards, stuff like that. also, i didn't get any regional-specific information at all. as far as where i will go, i think SONNAM at college/spadina is my choice. they say that if i give them a list of the stuff i want, they'll put it all together for me for $40, while doing their best to double check that it is all compatible. i figure if i do the lion's share of research on this, i *should* be safe...i've had no problems with that shop since i started going about 4 years ago. another place which i've heard has fantastic service is FILTECH (again on spadina, but just south of college, east side). as well, there is SAVED BY TECHNOLOGY, which i've heard mixed things about. apparently the service is atrocious. but they probably could put together a killer system for you (if you don't mind paying a little extra).

feel free to contact me for any other questions/discussions.

sandro

Hi Sandro,
Thanks for replying.

I have only bought small things in SONNAM, but know others who speak highly of it, and I have been looking around for a store that would put stuff together like this. I will go down and talk to them.

I did email a guy who works at the Bloor & Ossington branch of Long & McQuade and who has a side business doing this, but he never replied. The people in the computer dept. at Long & McQuade are very friendly, tolerant (of multiple enquiries over several weeks and months), and helpful.

I've never noticed Filtech, but will check it out.

I was in Saved By Technology the other day with a friend, and as I remembered, they're knowledge is restricted solely to Apple based stuff (they do sell some audio interfaces that work with both Mac's and PC's, but they're knowledge of these is also limited to uses with the Mac).

Please let me know how you get along with your system purchase and use.

Thanks for the reply,

Geert, in Toronto.
 
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