drum OHs clipping

[dastrick]

What mics did you use before that didn't give you any problems?

If the only thing that you changed were the mics, then I'm betting money that it's the mics. With that being said, I have a pair of C2's that I use as drum overheads and I haven't had a problem with them. Of course that's not to say that you didn't get a bad set of mics.

Which mixer outputs are you using to get the signal from the mixer to the Delta? If you're not using the Inserts then you could bypass the faders & eq on the mixer by using the inserts.

 

[connor413]

alright, i've got about a thousand questions, so i apologize in advance. first of all, is there a way i can adjust the level my daw itself records at? this probably isn't even relevant considering that even though the clipping sounds digital (right?), it still occurs even when my waveform is practically flat - if it were distorting at the digital conversion, wouldn't the wave basically be a spiky block? i assume this is why you've been suggesting i adjust pre-A/D settings.

Ok. Look at the levels you're getting on the mixer with those mics (hopefully you have peak reading meters in the mixer for the pre/channel (..and main out if you're using it and not going channel direct out-) Are they ok there?
Or, set up a test- anything other than those mics, that will give you similar levels in. Is it clean then?
Just per chance- what's you're location?

i don't think the signal is clipping at the pre because i'll still hear distortion when i record with the gain pot barely a hair above zero. there wasn't really any correlation between how much clipping occurred and where the gain pot was - the signal distorted about the same regardless of volume. but just to be sure, if i were to set up the mixer so i can see it while banging on the drums, would this be a decent way to check levels?

and if i do find clipping, then what? lower the gain pot until the peak indicator doesn't light up, right? is there any point at which i should screw around with the faders? i figure (in the case that the signal is clipping at the preamp) i'd try to get the signal down to where it isn't clipping, but since i'm hardly getting a waveform on my daw, i would switch the delta from +4 down to -10 in order to compensate. does that sound about right?

i'm skeptical that this won't work since i've consistently gotten distortion even when the gain is at next to nothing. i'll try anything though!

LASTLY, i was thinking i would test out the mics on something quiet like an unplugged guitar. if i adjust the gain to get a decent signal and find no distortion, that would point to the issue being the spl handling. if there's still clipping, then that would narrow it down, right?

and i'm currently located in western massachusetts. thanks a lot for all your help, i can't tell you how much i appreciate it.

What mics did you use before that didn't give you any problems?

a couple of ten dollar nady dynamics

Which mixer outputs are you using to get the signal from the mixer to the Delta? If you're not using the Inserts then you could bypass the faders & eq on the mixer by using the inserts.

the snare & kick are going through the main xlr outputs. the overheads are going through a second bus, 'alt 3-4'. here's what the back of my mixer looks like: http://www.ology.net/blogs/music/1204_rear.jpg. would bypassing the faders/eq theoretically be beneficial for my situation?

 

[dastrick]

Ok. Forget my suggestion about using the inserts. I thought you had a different mixer.

You could try this....

Setup and record like you normally would. Get yourself some headphones and plug them into the mixer. If you hear the clipping/distortion in your headphones then that will rule out the AD conversion. If you don't hear it in your headphones, but you hear it in the recording then it's not your mixer.

 

[dastrick]

a couple of ten dollar nady dynamics

dynammics or condensors?

You could have some funny 48V phantom supply going to the mics.

 

[mixsit]

first of all, is there a way i can adjust the level my daw itself records at?

No. Only the analog up stream of the A/D (Exception maybe- some interfaces have software controlled front ends?

if it were distorting at the digital conversion, wouldn't the wave basically be a spiky block? i assume this is why you've been suggesting i adjust pre-A/D settings.

The highest peaks all terminating at the same height = clipped –somewhere.
This is would be a good time for where you put all your DAW mixer controls –track's trim/gain, track fader, master out put trim and fader- no effects, everything straight thru, all at zero'd- then your peak meters in your DAW show your true internal level.

i don't think the signal is clipping at the pre because i'll still hear distortion when i record with the gain pot barely a hair above zero. there wasn't really any correlation between how much clipping occurred and where the gain pot was - the signal distorted about the same regardless of volume.

skipping forward..

but just to be sure, if i were to set up the mixer so i can see it while banging on the drums, would this be a decent way to check levels?
You always want to know what's going on at the pre and mixer. That is step one in setting level!

and if i do find clipping, then what? lower the gain pot until the peak indicator doesn't light up, right?

Yes. Exception- sometimes you can use a pre that saturate/soft clips' nicely for the effect.

is there any point at which i should screw around with the faders?

Again as in the DAW, most mixers where/when you want know where you are relative to their nominal/target internal operating level- faders at 'zero'. In that position 'pre fader solo level is the same as post-fader level = continuing to pass nominal level to the master bus. (If Mr B' is not up making a good 'set up manual just down load the Mackie they copied! Hahhhhhhhhh

i figure (in the case that the signal is clipping at the preamp) i'd try to get the signal down to where it isn't clipping,

Yes..

but since i'm hardly getting a waveform on my daw, i would switch the delta from +4 down to -10 in order to compensate.

But no. Keep it at the less sensitive (higher voltage/head room) +4. The only need for -10 is when hardware feeding it can't put out +4.

i'm skeptical that this won't work since i've consistently gotten distortion even when the gain is at next to nothing. i'll try anything though!

LASTLY, i was thinking i would test out the mics on something quiet like an unplugged guitar. if i adjust the gain to get a decent signal and find no distortion, that would point to the issue being the spl handling. if there's still clipping, then that would narrow it down, right?

Let's try this; Get your mixer where you can see what it's doing (doesn't eve need to be connected to the sound card I guess..) set it like above, note the levels.
Now.. don't change anything on the mixer, get your dynamic mic and use it to reproduce the same input to the mixer- i.e, snare and/or hat' tests or what ever- moving the mic in closer until you get the same input.
Now we have a full test me thinks.

and i'm currently located in western massachusetts. thanks a lot for all your help, i can't tell you how much i appreciate it.

Eh you never know, we could have been close enough to hop on over'..
Oddly enough.. we will be comin' you way to catch the Woods Hole ferry soon enough. How's that for a near miss!

 

[connor413]

This is would be a good time for where you put all your DAW mixer controls –track's trim/gain, track fader, master out put trim and fader- no effects, everything straight thru, all at zero'd- then your peak meters in your DAW show your true internal level.

as far as i know, they have been at 0 the whole time. i haven't adjusted anything in the daw myself

Again as in the DAW, most mixers where/when you want know where you are relative to their nominal/target internal operating level- faders at 'zero'. In that position 'pre fader solo level is the same as post-fader level = continuing to pass nominal level to the master bus. (If Mr B' is not up making a good 'set up manual just down load the Mackie they copied! Hahhhhhhhhh

manual says the main outs are rated at +4. it doesn't say for the alt bus, but i assume it's probably the same

Let's try this; Get your mixer where you can see what it's doing (doesn't eve need to be connected to the sound card I guess..) set it like above, note the levels.
Now.. don't change anything on the mixer, get your dynamic mic and use it to reproduce the same input to the mixer- i.e, snare and/or hat' tests or what ever- moving the mic in closer until you get the same input.
Now we have a full test me thinks.

then what? i'm not really following what the actual test is here

 

[mixsit]

..then what? i'm not really following what the actual test is here

Simulate/duplicate/make the same level going into the pre/mixer/sc/A/D converters with the same settings but with your known good dynamic mic(s).
Inother words use 'get closer' to the drums to get the same level you had trouble with the condensors.

 

[connor413]

Simulate/duplicate/make the same level going into the pre/mixer/sc/A/D converters with the same settings but with your known good dynamic mic(s).
Inother words use 'get closer' to the drums to get the same level you had trouble with the condensors.

yeah, but what do i do with that information once i approximate the levels with the dynamics? sorry if i'm missing something completely obvious here, i just don't quite get it

 

[connor413]

dynammics or condensors?

the C2s are condensers

You could have some funny 48V phantom supply going to the mics.

i think you might be on to something. i've had electrical problems before; earlier this summer, when i first started running the air conditioner, it would suck up all the power and my tracks started distorting even though i had been recording without a problem up until the AC came on. on top of the distortion, there was some weird noise in all the tracks that occurred in a pattern.

when i first attempted recording with the C2s, that noise showed up on the dynamic mic tracks. my mixer only has a master phantom power switch, not input-specific ones.

is there anything i can do to fix this?

 

[dastrick]

You could try a battery powered 48v phantom power supply.Although, I've never used one myself. Google it and see what you come up with.

 

[mixsit]

yeah, but what do i do with that information once i approximate the levels with the dynamics? sorry if i'm missing something completely obvious here, i just don't quite get it

We're trying to address two things.
One was getting back to where previously you were able to record clean' and the primary thing that changed was the new mics. (We were going back to the dynamics 'caused they worked right?

But along the way we learned you really didn't know if the levels were right (nominal' per the manual) at the pre and mixer.

-Get so you can see the mixer to set your levels with the condensors (or get a helper.
Test--
Still distortion? 'No it's clear' -We're done.
'Yes' -Change the mic.
Now the dynamic mics put out less voltage so we're going to move them (it) closer to make the same general voltage/signal to the pre/mixer.
--Actually you could I guess just raise the pre gain/trim to get back to the same level and still get the same full test I suppose.

Now if it's clean, we know it's the mics. If it's still distorted, we know it's not cause you clipped the pre, it's not the A/D 'cause you set that send up earlier and can tell by the DAW meters and waveform you're good there as well.
Whoo.

 

[connor413]

i'm almost positive it's an electrical issue now. i switched out the C2s and the weird noise i mentioned a couple posts up is still showing up in my dynamic tracks, even though phantom power is turned off. the noise shows up mainly in the kick and snare tracks, while the overheads (which are now a couple of dynamics i've used without a problem before) clip and pop.

the last time i had this problem, it was because i was running an air conditioner at the same time that i was recording, but i literally turned off everything except for my mixer and computer and the sound still shows up.

i posted a thread when that happened (here), but i'm not sure if those links still work. i can post other clips if it could help

 

[mixsit]

Sorry to hear that for sure. Knowing how this kind of trouble goes.. it's a frustrating situation. Sometimes you ever whish what ever it is would just the fuk melt so you could move on..

One last shot. Record something direct into the Delta. Eliminates upstream, the mixer. 'Delta and mixer's about the only things left.

 

[Minion]

as far as i know, they have been at 0 the whole time. i haven't adjusted anything in the daw myself

Thats your problem .... they shouldn"t be at 0db , they should be at about -18db (thats minus 18db) ......

I have a delta 44 (and a 1010lt) and a couple C2 mics but don"t use a mixer but use standalone Mic preamps instead and I have never had problems with the mic clipping and I don"t use a Pad and my preamps Minumum Gain is 20db so it is a Lot hotter signal that you are useing .......

Also I use my condensors as Overheads on my drums and I hang them from the ceiling and have one about 2 feet above the hi hat /first crash and 2 feet above the Last crash / ride ......

You might also think about getting a few standalone preamps so you can utilize all 4 inputs of your Delta 44 .....

So set your recording levels in your DAWto Minus 18db and you shouldn"t have clipping ...... and when you mix down a song you can bring the levels up so the output is close to 0db .....

Cheers

 

[mixsit]

Thats your problem .... they shouldn"t be at 0db , they should be at about -18db (thats minus 18db) ......
...So set your recording levels in your DAWto Minus 18db and you shouldn"t have clipping ......

Your they' looks to mean record levels. I'm pretty sure he and I were both referring to post-A/D stuff here -to get a clear estimate of his record levels.

 

[Minion]

Your they' looks to mean record levels. I'm pretty sure he and I were both referring to post-A/D stuff here -to get a clear estimate of his record levels.

I don"t think so ...... he said at the top of this page that he hasn"t adjusted any levels and everything is at 0db ..... every DAW that i have used sets the Input levels at 0db by Default which is way too hot ......

 

[connor413]

i was just saying that the faders within my DAW were set at 0, meaning i never adjusted them. the actual wav files of my recordings weren't going anywhere near 0db on the meters.

also, i have the xenyx's buses routed so i am using all 4 inputs on the delta. not the most efficient connection, but it gets the job done.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

The faders should be at 0.

It is the trim/preamp gain that should hit about -18