Drum mics too hot at lowest gain

J

jkarp

New member
Hi everyone, let me start by saying I play and record my drums just for my own enjoyment. I play pretty damn hard and am not trying to change my style if possible.

With that out of the way, here's my setup:

Audix F series mics on each Tom, bass, snare and 2 overheads.

Those go into a Behringer mixer, then Insert I/O out directly into a Zoom R16, then into a Mac Mini to record with Logic.

My issue is that with all the gain levels turned all the way down, I'm still getting too hot of a level on the snare and some of the toms at the mixer. I've tried playing with the mic positioning, but that doesn't seem to help. There's no attenuation on the mics, so that's not an option.

Besides playing softer, is there anything else I can try? Should I look into inline mic pads? Is there something else I should look into?

Thanks in advance for any feedback and advice!

... Josh
 
Not that it's a solution, but why aren't you going straight into the R16? It wouldn't surprise me if it had more range on the gain controls. That said, Whirlwind makes inline XLR pads in -10, -20 and -40dB reduction values.
 
"My issue is that with all the gain levels turned all the way down, I'm still getting too hot of a level on the snare and some of the toms at the mixer. "

I read that as clipping indicated on the mixer channels? Interesting.

For some condenser mics, definitely inline pads can be needed. Some can approach line level.
The Precision 8 that handles my drum mics, the dynamics on snare and kicks can also want a pad, but it also has '+16dB min gain.
Went over to the Mackie sitting here, has min on the trim of -20dB -much more latitude - as you might expect on a mixer.
What is min gain on your mixer by the way?
 
jkarp said:
With that out of the way, here's my setup: Audix F series mics on each Tom, bass, snare and 2 overheads.
Those go into a Behringer mixer, then Insert I/O out directly into a Zoom R16, then into a Mac Mini to record with Logic. Thanks in advance for any feedback and advice! ... Josh
Click to expand...

If you could list the make and model of the mixer, that would help a lot for troubleshooting your problem. Some mixers will have a db cut switch located on the back. If yours does, then switch it to the negative side. According to the information on the f-series mics, they are all dynamic except for the F-9 which is a condenser and is suggested for use as overheads or cymbals. It sounds like you may be having a problem with gain staging.

It is very odd that when using a dynamic mic with no gain, that you would get such a hot signal. I know this may sound silly but make sure you are not providing phantom power to the mics that do not require it. https://media.americanmusical.com/ItemFiles/Manual/aui_Fusion.pdf
 
The pretty old and bog S Xenyx 802 has a quoted maximum mic input level of +12dBu (at min gain) and that is 3V rms. I find it very unlikely that a capacitor mic, leave alone a dymo could produce that and leave people standing up!

Maybe the OP has a specific mixer that has a poor headroom spec? Not beyond the bounds that a bank of mic pres got the wrong 'bits' stuffed.

Note, although 'mixers' are generally a poor choice for HR work (and some folks have an irrational hatred of them!) in respect of MIC pres mixer are often superior to AIs. The latter of course usually have but one gain control. Mixers have at least two per channel.

Dave.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Phantom power will have no effect. It certainly won't add gain to a dynamic mic.
Click to expand...

I am well aware of that fact. Cables have been known to come from the factory mis wired. It is always best to start with the simple things when troubleshooting an issue. If phantom power is not required, then turn it off. That was my point.
 
Mack Caster said:
I am well aware of that fact. Cables have been known to come from the factory mis wired. It is always best to start with the simple things when troubleshooting an issue. If phantom power is not required, then turn it off. That was my point.
Click to expand...

Small/cheap mixers typically have one phantom power switch for all inputs. It's necessary for the condenser mics and irrelevant to the dynamic mics. Most likely he needs to leave it on.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Small/cheap mixers typically have one phantom power switch for all inputs. It's necessary for the condenser mics and irrelevant to the dynamic mics. Most likely he needs to leave it on.
Click to expand...

His Zoom 16 only has phantom on channels 5 and 6. If he is using the mics as per their instructions, then the problem he is having is with dynamic mics. That is what has me perplexed. Normally, you would need to apply more gain for dynamics to get a good signal, not turn it down to zero and still be to hot.
 
Mack Caster said:
I notice you have NOT OFFERED the OP any advice to help solve their problem. Maybe your time would be better spent giving your OWN advice than attacking others who are simply trying to help!
Click to expand...
That's silly. Bolder has contributed, in each post, some being to keep us on course.

And you're right, the OP's situation seems wacky. We need to hear from him.
 
Mack Caster said:
I notice you have NOT OFFERED the OP any advice to help solve their problem. Maybe your time would be better spent giving your OWN advice than attacking others who are simply trying to help!
Click to expand...

I suggested going straight into the R16, on the possibility that it had more gain range to accommodate high volume sources, and I suggested those Whirlwind pads. Phantom power is irrelevant.

I still want to know why the mixer is in the signal path. There may be a good reason, but that's not apparent at this stage.
 
Thanks for all the replies everyone and sorry for the lack of detail! Here's some more info:

The mixer is a Behringer X2442USB Mixer. The reason I've got that in the mix as opposed to going directly into the Zoom R16 is because I've been told the Behringer has better pre-amps. I've had better sounding recordings with this setup than going directly into the Zoom R16, but keep in mind I'm VERY new to recording, so that could play a big part in all of this as well.

The mics are all Audix:
(1) i5 for the snare,
(1) D6 for the inside kick,
(3) F10 tom mics
(2) F12 floor tom mics
(2) F15 overheads in spaced pair

One strange thing to note is that before this week, I had the same setup, but was using the Direct Out's on the Behringer to the Zoom. I was getting ok recordings with that, but I want to send the signal pre-fader to the Zoom. For whatever reason, this Behringer seems to send a post-fader signal from the Direct Outs, so I switched to the Insert I/O which is pre-fader. It wasn't until I switched to Insert I/O to the Zoom that I started having clipping issues. I'm not clear on why the output from the mixer would affect the gain levels, but it seems to have. Again, very possibly something I'm doing wrong since I'm new to all of this, so please don't hesitate to suggest anything at all, no matter how newbie it may be ;-)

Oh yeah, the Behringer provides Phantom on 1 &2 and that's where the overheads are plugged into.

Thanks... Josh
 
Even the 'insert out is almost always post mixer input gain controls.
Back to.. starting at the'ol top ploy'.. :)
What are the levels at the mixer channels in question?
(That would be the setting', range available and resulting level in the mixer channels?)
Getting that sorted answers whether or if a few in-line attenuators -and where- might be called for.
 
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jkarp said:
One strange thing to note is that before this week, I had the same setup, but was using the Direct Out's on the Behringer to the Zoom. I was getting ok recordings with that, but I want to send the signal pre-fader to the Zoom.
Click to expand...

Your insert sends are probably pre-compressor as well as pre-EQ. (according to Berry's block diagram for the x32, I couldn't find one for the x24)
This, of course, changes your gain staging.

I would just go back to recording with the direct outs.
Set your faders at unity.
If you want a live mix.. use the aux sends for that :)
 
camn said:
Your insert sends are probably pre-compressor as well as pre-EQ. (according to Berry's block diagram for the x32, I couldn't find one for the x24)
This, of course, changes your gain staging.

I would just go back to recording with the direct outs.
Set your faders at unity.
If you want a live mix.. use the aux sends for that :)
Click to expand...

yup: Annoyingly I cannot find a signal block diagram for the 2442 but the manual states that Direct Outs are POST channel fader but inserts are PRE fader.

You might therefore be sending too hot a signal to the R16 since even with channel gains at minimum there will be a strong signal.

Dave.
 
jkarp said:
Thanks for all the replies everyone and sorry for the lack of detail! Here's some more info: The mixer is a Behringer X2442USB Mixer. The reason I've got that in the mix as opposed to going directly into the Zoom R16 is because I've been told the Behringer has better pre-amps. Thanks... Josh
Click to expand...

Hey Josh, first of all, the equipment you have listed is on a pro level and I apologize to anyone who may have been offended by my comments on this tread. Your mixer is just that. A mixer. It is designed to take all your input signals and mix it down to one output signal. It is not a true audio interface.

Now, your Zoom is where you have more power than I think you realize. It is my opinion that you should remove your mixer out of the signal chain and work solely with the Zoom which is a true USB Audio Interface. You should have no problem getting a professional recording using this hardware.

If I had this set up this is what I would do. I would keep the same set up for the mics that you are using, making sure that the overhead mics were on the two channels that supplied phantom power. I would open up my DAW, I use Reaper, and I would create 9 tracks. I would assign each mic to its own track.

I would than set my input levels between a -12 and -18dbs and record. (You may have to experiment with mic placement to get these highly recommend results). Now you can go into your DAW and mix each track to the desired levels that you are looking for. I know you want to keep your mixer in the loop, but in audio, many times "Less is More". There is a rule of audio that states: Record Properly & Master Lightly. Just my $0.02.
 
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! The mixer is coming out of the mix and I'll go straight into the Zoom and give that a shot! Sometimes having a love for toys is a curse ;-)

...Josh
 
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