Drone when Recording Distorted Guitar

T

thegetch1

New member
I'm pulling my hair out over this. I just purchased a Marshall jcm2000 amp with a 1960a lead half stack. I've been playing around with micing and recording with an sm57/at2020. No matter what I do, I am unable to get a crisp sound without this drone around 130Hz. I can't seem to EQ it out because it spans too wide and cutting too many frequencies loses the low end completely. Here is what I've tried:

Micing:
Close Micing (SM57/AT2020)
- On Cone, on axis
- 2-3 inches off cone, on axis
- 2-3 inches off cone, perpendicular to cone side

Distance Micing
- On Cone, on axis, 4-6 inches away (SM57/AT2020)
- 2-3 inches off cone, on axis, 4-6 inches away (SM57/AT2020)
- 2-3 inches off cone, 4-6 inches away perpendicular to cone side (SM57)

Guitar: (Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus w/ Gibson 57/57+ pickups)
- Rhythm/treble/both pickup positions
- Raise/lowering pickups

Amp: (Marshall JCM2000 DSL50/1960a Lead Cab)
- Red channel low gain, higher volume
- Red channel high gain, lower volume
- EQs at noon
- EQs cutting bass to 9 o'clock
- EQs cutting bass and mids to 9 o'clock
- On/off bass boast

Preamp: (Beringer MIC100)
- In and out of recording chain, gain/output at various levels doesn't do much for the drone

Mixer: (Alesis Multimix 8 USB 2.0)
- EQ out bass to 9 o'clock (Only a 3-way EQ so whatever the bass knob cuts)
- Gain down/volume up
- Volume up/gain down

DAW (Acid Pro 7.0)
- EQ out 130ish Hz
- 60Hz hum cut filter

None of the above has worked. The only way I seem to be able to get rid of it is to cut out a swath on the EQ, but then the guitar sounds empty. It's also not a system/cable drone, because it's not there playing other instruments through the system. This only seems to happen recording distorted guitar. I definitely hear the bass droning a little from the cab, but it doesn't resonate like it does when I record it. The funny thing is that it seems to be the worst around a D# power chord (wolf tone lol?)

An example mp3 is attached

ANY ideas as to how to fix this would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Getch
 

Attachments

  • Drone.mp3
    288.9 KB · Views: 25
That's pretty normal dude. Especially with that cab. Those G12T-75 speakers have a big low end. I have the same cab and a Marshall head too and I know what you're talking about. The good news - it won't be a problem in a full mix. The worst it will do is make your guitar tracks sound huger. If it just drives you insane, do a very narrow and shallow cut right around 130-150hz, like no more than 2db, and high pass around 60 or so. But....that's the least of your worries. That tone in your clip is weak and scratchy. I know your rig can sound better than that. Get your mids up. Those 2000's are voiced to sound pretty "modern" which means a scooped midrange and a fat bottom. Combine that with the naturally scooped sonic profile of your speakers, and this is what you get. And ditch the AT2020 for miking a cab. It's terrible for that. You shouldn't need more than a 57 to get killer tone from that rig. Spend more time with mic placement and working your EQ knobs. And crank that thing. It's gotta be loud. :)
 
Yes, Greg_L is talking sense. These big amps tend to have a big hum but in the mix it'll be fine.

Don't lose the forest for the trees man.

Cheers :)
 
Thanks to you both for the feedback!! I did notice that the drone would get lost in the mix a bit which was good, but I'll try those EQ settings. In terms of tone, I've been fighting with that for awhile. This is my first Marshall head (first head/stack for that matter) and I'm finding it a bit tricky. Would you have any suggestions in terms of settings? Also in terms of mic placement, any thoughts on what I've tried or perhaps something else?

Thanks again!
 
thegetch1 said:
Thanks to you both for the feedback!! I did notice that the drone would get lost in the mix a bit which was good, but I'll try those EQ settings. In terms of tone, I've been fighting with that for awhile. This is my first Marshall head (first head/stack for that matter) and I'm finding it a bit tricky. Would you have any suggestions in terms of settings? Also in terms of mic placement, any thoughts on what I've tried or perhaps something else?

Thanks again!
Click to expand...
The settings depend on the tone you're after. Marshalls sound like Marshalls though, so if you're looking for a Mesa or Fender tpe of sound, it aint gonna happen. I don't have too much experience with DSLs, but I've fiddled with them. The deep and mid cuts can be tricky. The channels are pretty different. I'd day start with everything at noon (5) and go from there. You're gonna have to figure it out on your own. I do know though that if it were me, I'd have the mids on that amp way up there. And of course, where the master vol is set makes a huge difference too. Too low a volume, and you're not getting the power tubes involved enough, and power tube saturation is where most Marshalls come alive. Mine's not happy until the vol is past 5, and then the whole street isn't happy. Too bad for them! :D

As for miking, the closer to the center of the cone, the brighter the sound is gonna be. I think your best sounds are gonna come from somewhere between the center and halfway to the edge. Anything past halfway on the speaker is gonna get pretty dark. I like to mic the spot where the dustcap meets the actual cone, or pur it there and then turn the mic in off-axis towards the center. I get a pretty clear and bright sound there without being spiky. Try it. Put that 57 up there go to town. And try the different speakers too. Often one speaker will sound the best. That's the one you use.
 
experiment with the high pass. I sometimes go as high as 250-300 on electrics. depends on the tone you're looking for and how the bass sits with it. also keep in mind some high pass filters start at whatever frequency you set and taper down..so if it's set at 300, it may still be letting some 130 in so you're going to need to mess with the EQ.

the axis (angle) of the 57 makes a big difference too.

as for setting the tone...you have to get to know your amp. i sometimes turn all the eq knobs to 0 and then individually turn them up and down to see what they do. they are kind of interactive, so as you change one you'll probably need to adjust the others, but getting to know your amp is the number one thing in getting a good recorded tone.
 
Greg_L said:
The settings depend on the tone you're after. Marshalls sound like Marshalls though, so if you're looking for a Mesa or Fender tpe of sound, it aint gonna happen. I don't have too much experience with DSLs, but I've fiddled with them. The deep and mid cuts can be tricky. The channels are pretty different. I'd day start with everything at noon (5) and go from there. You're gonna have to figure it out on your own. I do know though that if it were me, I'd have the mids on that amp way up there. And of course, where the master vol is set makes a huge difference too. Too low a volume, and you're not getting the power tubes involved enough, and power tube saturation is where most Marshalls come alive. Mine's not happy until the vol is past 5, and then the whole street isn't happy. Too bad for them! :D

As for miking, the closer to the center of the cone, the brighter the sound is gonna be. I think your best sounds are gonna come from somewhere between the center and halfway to the edge. Anything past halfway on the speaker is gonna get pretty dark. I like to mic the spot where the dustcap meets the actual cone, or pur it there and then turn the mic in off-axis towards the center. I get a pretty clear and bright sound there without being spiky. Try it. Put that 57 up there go to town. And try the different speakers too. Often one speaker will sound the best. That's the one you use.
Click to expand...

Great suggestions, I really turned up the mids, I never was one to cut them out anyways, but really turning them up seemed to do wonders! I have tried those mic positions and speaker selection so combining that with the EQ settings did about 75%. The other 25% I found on another forum. I doubled the track, panned one hard left, the other hard right, but then also offset the right channel by 1 ms. Not enough for the ear to hear, but really fills out the stereo field! My mix just has so much more low to mid and meshes so well with the left hand of the keyboard ;)

@aaron, nice point about the interactivity of the EQ, I hadn't thought about that, but makes sense, I'll def be looking out for that going forward. Honestly I think one of my biggest faults in toning in this amp is that I did so standing right over it. I noticed that you lose all the high end doing that. So now I always step back 6 feet or so, or even get right in front of the speaker, to see what's really going on.

Thanks all for the help, I'll post a clip of the song with the new guitar to see what guys think.
 
I don't hear the droning you're referring too.

your tracked tone may work just great in a mix, but on its own it's thin and scratchy. Little meat or substance.

Do you know for sure what speakers are in the cab? I'm not a big fan of the 12t75 only. if the amps' got a lot of mids maybe. They're like supporting speakers that fill in nicely. Sort of like a backup singer.

I'd go with the 57 only.
Rules of thumb...
Top end -> side-to-side
Bottom end -> To-fro

Try this. Put the 57 about 6 inches out pointing straight at the center of the speaker. Now adjust the amp controls only. don't move the mic. now track a shit load of different gtr settings. throw away any per-conceived notions about where the amp controls need to be. get outside the box. track and listen. adjust... track and listen. continue this for a session. after your ears have rested over night, go back and listen to all of the trackings very closely.

the next session, move the mic in an inch. repeat.

the next session, move the mic out two inches. repeat.

and so on.

plan on spending about two weeks on this exercise.
 
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By copying, doubling, and shifting your track, you essentially just put it out of phase with itself. If you think that sounds good, then try tracking it twice. It'll sound way better.
 
The funny thing about the Haas effect is that the original (the un-delayed version) is always heard first so it draws your head to whatever side it's panned. It never sounds truly stereo and will always pull your ear to one side. This is because when it comes to two similar but delayed sources, the ear/brain focuses on the one that reaches it first, regardless of panorama.

This has it's roots in our evolution as hunted hunters when it would have been necessary to perceive the position of the enemy.

Cheers :)
 
Hmm, interesting about the delay drawing to one side. I haven't noticed that, although my ears are so tired of these chords lol. however, I might have fixed the tone, at least it's more meaty now. Yeah, I've been working on this tone for upwards of a month now, it's getting closer, but not sure if it's 100% to my liking. The biggest thing for me is that the rhythm guitar is not the focal point in my music, it's the keys. So, to sonixx's point, maybe this new tone fits the song? I don't know, I've attached the intro to my mix. I'm curious to see what you guys think of the rhythm guitar and suggestions are welcome!
 
thegetch1 said:
Hmm, interesting about the delay drawing to one side. I haven't noticed that, although my ears are so tired of these chords lol. however, I might have fixed the tone, at least it's more meaty now. Yeah, I've been working on this tone for upwards of a month now, it's getting closer, but not sure if it's 100% to my liking. The biggest thing for me is that the rhythm guitar is not the focal point in my music, it's the keys. So, to sonixx's point, maybe this new tone fits the song? I don't know, I've attached the intro to my mix. I'm curious to see what you guys think of the rhythm guitar and suggestions are welcome!
Click to expand...

Your attachment doesn't work.
 
blast, try that. It's seems temperamental, sometimes I had to do rightclick save as.

I totally hear the haas effect now so I double the track, but left them synced. I added some stereo imaging to one of them to give it some fullness. It's getting there I think.
 

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  • intro.mp3
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I think he meant the updated version of the clip "intro.mp3" Thanks anyways, i dont have enough posts to post a link yet :(
 
thegetch1 said:
blast, try that. It's seems temperamental, sometimes I had to do rightclick save as.

I totally hear the haas effect now so I double the track, but left them synced. I added some stereo imaging to one of them to give it some fullness. It's getting there I think.
Click to expand...

It's better. Still a little thin and scratchy. But better. Keep working on it. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Let me tell you about doubling a track - it does nothing but make it louder. You can do things to one of the tracks, but it's still the same track, just doubled, and it's usually not a good result. You could have added the "stereo imaging" to just the one track and got the same result. If you want true bigness and fullness with guitars, you need to at least record it twice. Two distinct takes. Layer them, or spread em apart. That's your choice. But doing one and copying and doubling does pretty much nothing unless you do some heavy processing to one of them, and again, it rarely ends up sounding good. Get your tone right at the amp, get your mic positioning right at the speaker, and press record. The less you have to do to a track, usually the better it will sound. It really is that simple......and difficult.....all at the same time.
 
double track...don't copy, delay, and pan same take...some people swear by it, but I have never heard a copied/delayed/panned track that sounded good. There are no "rules" to recording, but this is pretty close for me.

doubling will be a million percent better. Get a good tone, record it, then record the same thing again, then pan them (usually pretty hard each direction, but you can experiment with that). I can't explain why, I just know double tracking sounds so much better than copy and delay (or stereo image or whatever).
 
aaronmcoleman said:
double track...don't copy, delay, and pan same take...some people swear by it, but I have never heard a copied/delayed/panned track that sounded good. There are no "rules" to recording, but this is pretty close for me.

doubling will be a million percent better. Get a good tone, record it, then record the same thing again, then pan them (usually pretty hard each direction, but you can experiment with that). I can't explain why, I just know double tracking sounds so much better than copy and delay (or stereo image or whatever).
Click to expand...

This x 1000000000000000000000000000 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
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