doubling up the kick?

  • Thread starter Thread starter skiz
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RAMI said:
Absilutely, I agree with experimentation. But again, mixing 2 identical kik drum sounds that come from the same mic, drum, and recording does nothing other than make the kik louder. Your technique of mixing DIFFERENT bass drums is legitimate.
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BINGO!!!...

If you take 2 copies of the same wave and EQ them differently you're really just EQing ONE sound. You're elevating the same frequencies as if they were the same track.

If you take two identical waves and play them both at the same volume,then you EQ out some of the frequencies in one wave - nothing will happen to the sound!
 
skiz said:
i do completely agree with getting the best raw sound possible

my problem is i dont know what to look for in completely raw drum sounds as im so new to the game.

so what ill try do tomorrow or the next day is record a little test on my kit, completely raw no eq or compression or reverbs or anything, and ill try get it posted up here so you guys can hopefully tell me if im doing anything right or anything wrong.

id be very grateful :)

oh and does any one know a good site i could host the mp3 on?
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You ever taken a drum out of the box and tuned it up?

That's a raw drum sound.

With a bass drum you might need a little bit of dampening, but a little goes a looooong way!

Try none at all and move up from there. Tune the head just above flappy.
 
Yonce N Mild said:
Obviously I missed something because I don't see that info anywhere in this thread.
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Maybe it was in his other "drum delay" thread.

It is pretty common, my guess would be over 50%. But that's another discussion. I never said he should use samples I never said that doubling the kick is the right thing for him to do. I said it might work for him depending on the sound he is going for.

My only point is that it IS a legitimate technique and you can get some really cool results with it. Honestly try it and see. Isn't that half the fun? Messing around and trying different things? If you are happy with the end result why does it matter what path you took?
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Because I have real drums, enjoy playing them, enjoy recording them, and enjoy the results. I also use mediocre stuff in a not-so-great room and get pretty good results, so I don't accept giving up and switching to samples.

I don't knock people using samples if they have to. This cat has real drums and mics though. I feel that he should learn how to record them.
 
skiz said:
im not boosting an insane amount, about 1.5 to 2 db boost in the 90 - 125 range
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90 to 125hz is a little high for bass drum. that's the low end of the toms,snare, guitars, and some vocals which means you're not leaving enough room for them sonically.

1khz is closer to the high mids in the bass guitar(8 or 900hz) and snare (between 1 and 3khz).

try boosting closer to 50 or 60hz on the kick, cut somewhere between 300 and 500 (in most cases 300 will help to create a more modern kick sound) and then boost the high mids a little closer to 4khz, maybe 5khz. Also, try rolling off below 40 or 50hz. I know it seems counter productive on a kick, but if you were sending it out to a mastering engineer they would be doing it to the entire mix anyway.

Doubling the track will only give you a 3db boost, nothing else. You can eq and compress them differently, but the same thing can be achieved with 1 track with proper compression and eq.

If you can't get the kick to cut through and adding a copy of the same kick track helps, all you needed to do was pull everything else down 3db and pull up your master fader.

To me it sounds like you're not leaving enough room for everything else in the mix and it's causing some masking of the kick and you may possibly be turning everything else up too loud and that's eating into your headroom.

Also, if you're going for a modern kick sound don't be a wuss with eq. People started telling beginners that you should be conservative with your boosts because most beginners haven't learned to really listen to what they're doing. You should be eqing and compressing with everything else in the mix on. It doesn't matter what anything sounds like solo'd because that's not the way the end listener is going to hear it.

you also need to be carving a space in the other instruments for the bass drum. Try rolling off from 80hz down on the bass guitar, and 100 hz down on the rest of the drums,guitar (you can go even higher on guitar) and vocals.
 
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Greg_L said:
I don't accept giving up and switching to samples.
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Why do you keep saying this? Who said give up and switch to samples?


RAMI said:
Abslutely, I agree with experimentation. But again, mixing 2 identical kik drum sounds that come from the same mic, drum, and recording does nothing other than make the kik louder. Your technique of mixing DIFFERENT bass drums is legitimate.
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PhilGood said:
BINGO!!!...

If you take 2 copies of the same wave and EQ them differently you're really just EQing ONE sound. You're elevating the same frequencies as if they were the same track.

If you take two identical waves and play them both at the same volume,then you EQ out some of the frequencies in one wave - nothing will happen to the sound!
Click to expand...

I agree with both of your statements. But that is not what I'm talking about and that is not what he is doing.

He is :
skiz said:
eqing the tracks differently to get lows on the one and the 1 - 1.5k attack region on the other
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Sometimes if you raise the volume of a kik drum to much it muddies the mix correct?
You could fix that by cutting some of the low end on the kick and the bass right?
What if when you cut the low end of the kik it sounds like crap?
Do you just boost the hell out of the mids and highs?

Maybe it would make sense to double up the kick track, cut the low end off one of the tracks, and raise the volume on that track so you raise volume of the attack without raising the volume of the boom?

This can be done on a single track with some compression and eq that is true, but the double track method lets you use less extreme compression and eq settings.

Isn't it common to double track guitars and vocals? Why dose it sound so crazy to you guys to do the same with a kick drum?

But most importantly this:
skiz said:
i duno, ive just tried it and it seems to make a huge difference
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That's all I need to know.
 
Yonce N Mild said:
I agree with both of your statements. But that is not what I'm talking about and that is not what he is doing.

He is :

Sometimes if you raise the volume of a kik drum to much it muddies the mix correct?
You could fix that by cutting some of the low end on the kick and the bass right?
What if when you cut the low end of the kik it sounds like crap?
Do you just boost the hell out of the mids and highs?

Maybe it would make sense to double up the kick track, cut the low end off one of the tracks, and raise the volume on that track so you raise volume of the attack without raising the volume of the boom?
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Because it's the exact same thing as turning up the attack on ONE TRACK. Why is it so hard for you to understand this????

Isn't it common to double track guitars and vocals? Why dose it sound so crazy to you guys to do the same with a kick drum?
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When you double guitar tracks you PLAY THE TRACK TWICE. It's not the same as copying and pasting it to another track. If you copied and pasted a guitar or vocal track to another track, it would simply make it louder, just like we've been trying to tell you the same thing happens with a bass drum.

But most importantly this: "I dunno...It seems to work for me".
That's all I need to know.
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What part of his quote is supposed to convince us? The "I dunno", or the "It seems"???
The operative word is "SEEMS"...("I dunno" is pretty important, too)..

It's louder, that's why it SEEMS to make a difference. Funny that you didn't quote me saying I tried it and it made absolutely no difference. Because I know it doesn't.
 
Yonce N Mild said:
Why do you keep saying this? Who said give up and switch to samples?
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No one. I was just making a point. Why fuck with samples when he has real drums?


Isn't it common to double track guitars and vocals? Why dose it sound so crazy to you guys to do the same with a kick drum?
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It's not the same. Double-tracking is playing the part twice usually for a thicker or more full effect. Thats 2 different takes. He's not recording another kick track. He's just duplicating the existing one. Not necessary. Truly double-tracking a kick would be retarded.
 
Why don't you guys get phone numbers and take it in turn to post?
:)
 
RAMI said:
Because it's the exact same thing as turning up the attack on ONE TRACK. Why is it so hard for you to understand this????
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If it's the same then why is it so wrong? lol I actually agree though it is pretty much the same, more than one way to skin a cat ya know?

I know that double tracking usually involves playing it twice my point is you can have two mostly identical tracks and not have it to loud.
Nowhere did he say "I doubled the tracks and kept them both at the same level" therefore doubling the volume. You definitely need to turn both tracks down significantly to make this work.

RAMI said:
Funny that you didn't quote me saying I tried it and it made absolutely no difference. Because I know it doesn't.
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I didn't quote you saying you tried it because you didn't use eq and honestly how much effort did you put into it? If you told him to try some different mic placements and he came back 15 min later and said OK I moved the mic and it didn't work what would you say to him?

RAMI said:
I tried it and it made absolutely no difference. Because I know it doesn't.
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That's always the best way to go into an experiment, already convinced of the results.:cool:
 
Yonce N Mild said:
If it's the same then why is it so wrong? lol I actually agree though it is pretty much the same, more than one way to skin a cat ya know?
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So 2 pages into the thread you finally agree with what you've been trying to to disagree with for nothing??? :eek:
Pretty much makes the rest of your post totally pointless.

But I'll answer anyway.

I know that double tracking usually involves playing it twice my point is you can have two mostly identical tracks and not have it to loud.
Nowhere did he say "I doubled the tracks and kept them both at the same level" therefore doubling the volume. You definitely need to turn both tracks down significantly to make this work.
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You just admitted it doesn't work. You're starting to foolishly contradict yourself. And once again, and I'll type slowly this time.....You're "accomplishing" the exact same thing as you would by having one track at the same volume as the 2 combined. But you already said you know that.


I didn't quote you saying you tried it because you didn't use eq and honestly how much effort did you put into it? If you told him to try some different mic placements and he came back 15 min later and said OK I moved the mic and it didn't work what would you say to him?
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Are you really typing any of this with a straight face???? If it takes you hours to copy a track, turn one up, then mute one, and you compare that with how long it takes to mic drums, then that explains alot about your "theories". But you already admitted there was no difference, so why are you questioning my results??? Once again, contradiction.

That's always the best way to go into an experiment, already convinced of the results.:cool:
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Seems to me you would have only been happy if I said you were right. Turns out you ended up saying we were right all aong....but you're still not happy for some reason. That's really odd.
 
....oooofffff......

That's enough for me.....At this point, we'll all just be repeating ourselves. Anyway, we all seem to agree.:D
 
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