Double D/A Conversion (mixing OTB)

[ardy77]

How many of you regularly perform digital tracking and then send the tracks back out to a hardware mixer/processor and then send the output back in digitally???

That's alot of D/A A/D conversion going on...and with that in mind why do modern day studios with digital setups still have these huge analog boards that they mix on (clearly they must be guilty of lots of D/A A/D conversion)??

is it just "good" converters that allow you to do this? How would the converters in the EMU 1820M stack up in this kind of environment?

Thanks!

 

[Massive Master]

I'd want to use better... But if it gives you the sound you want, that counts to a large degree, no?

 

[ardy77]

Yes I suppose you're right...but I have heard good things about EMU 1820M 24-bit/192kHz converters...

I am also interested in how often people go outboard? Is it industry standard to preserve the original signal in favor of going outboard for some high-quality analog processing?

Clearly, newer studios boasting huge digital setups with these huge analog boards must be doing more than simply using those boards for tracking only (?) this would entail going outboard for AT LEAST the mix...if not also for other types of processing...thats why I'm wondering if, say, 2 or 3 passes of A/D-D/A conversion is "acceptable" in terms of the norm....I know I can just do what sounds good...but I'm looking for the norm here

well thanks

 

[Massive Master]

I think it depends on the engineer and the available gear.

I don't do an incredible amount of mixing anymore - There are projects I've worked on that *every* channel went back through an analog board. However, with certain plugs, I'm totally comfortable staying "in the box" for the most part (thank you, UAD).

That being said, I often like a little mild buss compression - I really haven't found a plug that I care for on the main buss. But for summing in general, ever since I started using Samplitude, I haven't really missed analog summing as I once did.

Obviously, mastering is another story completely - But I might be just a little biased there. It's very rare that I don't go through a conversion stage. But I've done some interesting experiments with my converters (in, out, in, out, in, out, in, out, in, out - On and on until I could clearly hear a difference in quality) and I trust them for the task.

So the basic answer is that if it actually benefits the sound in a positive and substantial way, do it.

 

[TuoKaerf]

I use the DAW as a tape machine for the most part. I like the sound of the analog gear I have access to over most of the plug-ins that they have for the Pro Tools rigs. I haven't had any problems from the conversions, and the sound of a good console's summing buss (SSL G) beats the hell out of bouncing to disk.

When tracking, I take the shortest route possible into Pro Tools, unless I'm looking to get a specific sound out of something. Usually I'll go straight from the outboard Pre and patch right into the MTR inputs.

 

[mixsit]

There's been some really good threads on this just a few years back comparing preferences and pluses/minuses of ITB Vs going out. A lot of it comes down to having some nice analog and preferring that sound and way of working. Typically the conversion isn't the bigger factor.
Wayne

 

[thedude400]

How many of you regularly perform digital tracking and then send the tracks back out to a hardware mixer/processor and then send the output back in digitally???

That's alot of D/A A/D conversion going on...and with that in mind why do modern day studios with digital setups still have these huge analog boards that they mix on (clearly they must be guilty of lots of D/A A/D conversion)??

is it just "good" converters that allow you to do this? How would the converters in the EMU 1820M stack up in this kind of environment?

Thanks!

That is a very good question. I myself asked that question about a month ago and am still a bit unclear on the issue. When I started aching to use my fingers more during mixdown I found myself bombarded with questions about analog A/D , D/A summing. I got alot of useful help from people on this site, you may even learn a thing or 2 about this very topic from my previous post. Search DDx3216.

What I have gathered up until now is this. It is generally a good idea to try to cut down on the number of times summing whether it be D/A or A/D. But I have come to find out that the way alot of people do it (even the big boys) is by summing out of the back of the interface into the analog board, mix, eq, pull in some effects with the sends, then sum it out of the board 2-channels back into the interface.

Some like the warm sound of an analog board and think that a completely digital mix sounds cold and empty. But then you have those who think that is complete nonsense and that digital is totally capable (if not more )of matching or achieving the sound of a warm analog signal.

From what I have gathered, and there may be those who would disagree, that coming out of your interface, into an analog board, back into the interface will not hurt the overall signal to a degree that could be thought of as " signifigant signal quality degredation". IF, you have good enough converters. How much it changes the signal compared to how snobby you are about your signal quality is where the answer lies.

The bottom line is you should try to gain access to someone who has a setup like this and see what you think. Mixing in the box is obviously a buttload cheaper but I myself prefer mixing down analog. To me it's easier and just plain fun.

 

[ardy77]

Awesome responses...thanks for all the info!

Now you got me thinking about getting an analog summing device (I guess most analog mixers fall into this category) =)

thanks again!

 

[TuoKaerf]

I'm a hands on guy, and I like to use faders, be it with an analog console or a control surface. I like using both digital and analog for mixing, and I have done mixes with all analog and all digital. You can get great results with any combination of the above.

Some people complain about analog noise (the same as all analog people complaining about digital). If you're getting a lot of crappy noise, there's an issue in your signal path. Either you have a noisy piece of gear, or something is broke. For the digital side, avoid numerous bit depth conversions and get higher quality A/D converters.

 

[TuoKaerf]

Awesome responses...thanks for all the info!

Now you got me thinking about getting an analog summing device (I guess most analog mixers fall into this category) =)

thanks again!

There are a lot of awesome summing busses out there, copied from the big desks that are very affordable. I head one of the Trident 80B ones, and I found almost no difference than the Trident i've worked on.

 

[ardy77]

what about the fact that I only have 8 total outputs on my card? what if I have 32 tracks I want to sum....either I do sub-summing ITB and get it down to 8 tracks...OR I do the sub-summing OTB and then do another round of summing to get the final out???

(I have a feeing I might have just answered my own question!!)

can adat somehow get added to the equation with the right summing gear??


thanks =)

 

[LemonTree]

I started out mixing in the box years ago. By chance I got an Allen & Heath GS1 and a half inch tascam 8 track at a steal of a price. I sold the tascam and bought a delta 1010 with it. From there I just loved the convenience of having everything at my finger tips instead of running through menu after menu and millions of mouse clicks. I added another two delta cards giving me 24 outputs back to the mixer which I upgraded firstly to an Allen & Heath Saber, then a soundtracs Topaz project 8 for space reasons. Even the bottom end entry level outboard reverbs give me better results than most plugins, everything is at arms reach and my mixes have taken on a whole new dimention.

I think nothing of three passes through my convertors at 24/48. Maybe I'm losing something but it'll never outweigh what I'm making up on ergonomics. Plus having a rack full of gear is a real easy way to heat the place

 

[TuoKaerf]

what about the fact that I only have 8 total outputs on my card? what if I have 32 tracks I want to sum....either I do sub-summing ITB and get it down to 8 tracks...OR I do the sub-summing OTB and then do another round of summing to get the final out???

(I have a feeing I might have just answered my own question!!)

can adat somehow get added to the equation with the right summing gear??


thanks =)

You could sum down to stems in the box (stereo tracks of like Drums, Guitars, Vox) and then send it out to the box.

 

[ardy77]

Thanks for the answers....how do I go about adding additional inputs/outputs to my EMU1820m....can I add another couple 1820m's and actually fill up my PCI bus with more physical cards??? or is there a way to extend the single card with more i/o ?

 

[Garik]

there are many different soundcards out there ,some are good,and some are bad.It depends though,you can get a delta 1010 and that will give you 8 ins/outs and you can stack them like Lemon said.But some like the better conversions and think that delta is not worthy ...but i say if thats all you can afford why not? Many here are happy with it.

But i would deffinitly look into a good analog mixer so you wont have to change it anymore.

But the way i do it ,...for now...i rung my tracks out of the PC into a preamp and get a flavor i want and rerecord it back into pc....especialy drums,since if you use software drums theres not much help in plugins.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Nowadays mixing/summing "in the box" is probably more pristine and accurate than anything else out there. Five or six years ago this wasn't true, but nowadays....