Does thick concrete wall count as a leaf?

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Hummarstra

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The basement of the house I'll be moving into in 3 weeks has concrete walls all around its perimeter. I'm thinking of building a room in one of the corners so I will have concrete walls on two sides of the studio. I'll build double walls for the sides that face the rest of the open basement. But, do I need to do that for the sides that will already have concrete behind them? In other word, do I need to build a this order - gypsum>stud>inso>air>inso>stud>gypsum and then concrete wall or can I just go gypsum>stud>inso>air to the concrete wall? Would that qualify as two leafs?
 
I've heard the term "leafs" a few times by now. Do you mind telling me what they are? I am sorry I can't help you though....
 
I've heard the term "leafs" a few times by now. Do you mind telling me what they are? I am sorry I can't help you though....

Hello. The term "leaf", refers to a boundary to sound. In a standard residential wall, there are two leafs. One on each side of the stud. However, a floor AND ceiling are also a leaf or more. Roofs can fit into this term also. In terms of sound transmission loss, a two leaf assembly is a description of a MASS-AIR-MASS resonant system, whereby each leaf represents MASS, and the cavity between these leafs is the AIRGAP. For the homerecording enthusiast interested in building his own studio, there is much to be gained from understanding this principle. All boundarys in a room are considered ONE leaf, if they are part of the enclosure. To learn about the MASS-AIR-MASS principle, read this as it says more than I could ever.
:http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co.uk/tloss.htm



As to the question
or can I just go gypsum>stud>inso>air to the concrete wall? Would that qualify as two leafs?
YES. The new wall is a continuation of the inner leaf of the other double walls you intend on building. To truly be effective, this airgap needs to not only encompass the perimeter walls, but floor and ceiling for maximum isolation.......not an easy or cheap task. The most effecient way of constructing this is to build a floating floor, build walls upon this floor, and either suspend a ceiling on resiliant channel, Risc clips, or structurally support new ceiling joist on the walls that are on the floating floor. However, there is MUCHO to understand to accomplish this, as it is no easy task to calculate not only the weight of this COMPLETE ROOM, but it's intended occupants, equipment, doors, etc, in order to guarantee that the resiliant isolation "pucks" or pads, reach a maximum compression while still maintaining their resiliancy to vibration. This is a subject that has been discussed at length here
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2

But if you want in depth analysis, gohere. :eek: :confused: ;) :rolleyes: :D
http://www.earsc.com/HOME/engineering/TechnicalWhitePapers/Vibration/index.asp?SID=61

Aside from all that :p , IF your isolation needs are not that great, as in "flute solos" vs ROCK DRUMS...maybe some alternatives would be good to know, such as alternate stud construction vs double walls, and resiliant channel on furring strips on the concrete wall, with rigid fiberglass between the furring strips, and batt type insulation between the alternate studs. Yell if you want more information, or simply do a search for these terms here.

hope that helps
fitZ
 
FitZ, thanks for the response. I plan on a floating floor and decoupled ceiling and all that.

fitZ2 said:
The new wall is a continuation of the inner leaf of the other double walls you intend on building.

I don't understand this statement. Could you give it to me in a "gypsum>stud>inso>air" kind of description?

Also, Fitz, while I've got you're ear I have a basement floor question. My basement has chipboard flooring on 2x6 joists and a shallow crawl space underneath. Given that I will have concrete walls (all underground) on two sides of the studio for iso, what kind of construction other than a floating floor on pucks would I need? IOW, do I need to reinforce the existing floor w/ more plywood or that roofing rubber stuff? I'm afraid the floor will act like a drumhead. You probably need more info, but any help is appreciated. Thanks FitZ.
 
Hello Hummarstra. Let me clarify something. First off, my disclaimer. I am NOT an expert at this stuff by any means. There are members here who are far more enlightened than I, so anything I tell you is my OPINION, and subject to others clarification, guffas, razzberrys and outright :rolleyes: :D But I think my opinions are in the ballpark so to speak. The thing is, it is very difficult for people here to predict exactly what the different aspects of your goals are. Type of music, db profile of what your are recording, environmental noise, containment aspirations, budget, skills, existing construction....all have a bearing on the final choices for materials and techniques used in your project.
However, my main job around here :D is to extract enough information from people, to bring these aspects to the forefront, so myself and others have a better overview of your the problems at hand, in order to suggest relevant solutions. Otherwise, we are spitting in the wind. So before getting into the actual suggestions, lets look at the information you have provided so far.
This proposed project is going to be in the corner of a basement.
All of the walls of the basement are CONCRETE, and are FULLY below
grade.
Your plan is to build a room in one corner of the basement, utilizing 2
of the concrete walls, and building two NEW partitions(leave out the double wall scenario for now.)
The floor of the basement is wood, with 2x6 joists, with a small crawl
space below it and chipboard sheithing.(OSB or particle board
underlayment?)
Ok, you are completely correct. We need MUCHO more information to begin suggesting things.
Here is what we would LIKE to know. Starting from the ground up.
1. Are these concrete walls simply a foundation footing for the structure above?
2. When you say crawl space, how deep is it from the ground below to the bottom of the joists, and is there any insulation in the joist cavities?
3. I assume you have actually looked into the crawl space. Have you seen any evidence of water collecting under there, or through the walls?
4. Can you see any RIM joists at the walls that the floor joists die into?
5. If applicable, are these RIM joists and floor joists setting on a wood plate, that in turn is resting on a thickened portion of the concrete walls? In other words, is the foundation or footing thicker under the floor framing than the walls are?
If not, exactly what is supporting this floor? Are there any concrete
piers under the span or is there any beams supporting the joists at the center of the span?
6. What is the spacing of the joists center to center?
7. What are the dimensions of this complete floor? Width and length to the walls. Height of the room, from existing floor sheathing, to the underside of the joists above(if exposed, if not, to the finish ceiling.)
On to the walls.....
8. Can you determine the thickness of the concrete walls?
9. How far above grade do these walls extend before the framing of the first floor begins?
10. Are these walls solid concrete, or concrete block with a plaster coat?
On to the existing ceiling and general information....
11. What room is above the area that you plan on as a room?
12. Is the existing ceiling in the basement already finished, or is it exposed framing?
13. If finished, what is it?
14. If exposed framing, how deep are the joists, and what is the subflooring and finish flooring above?
15. Are there any things adjacent, or within the space you are enclosing, such as HVAC, pipes, stairs, radiators, fireplaces, electrical supply panels
etc?
16. Are there any HVAC ducts in the joist cavities above this proposed space?
17. What are you planning as far as HVAC or ventilation in this space?
General..
18. What are your general isolation goals? In other words, what are you trying to isolate, airborne sound in the studio from transmitting to the upstairs and the adjacent room in the basement? How about structural transmitted noise generated above, like footsteps etc. Any neighbors within 20 feet? How about environmental noise like aircraft, street traffic, industrial noise such as manufacturing or transportation vehicles(trains, trucks, etc?)
What kind of music are you dealing with, and exactly what are you going to be doing? Recording live voices, instruments, direct to board, mixing, band practice etc? Any live drums? Bass?
Where are you located?
Are you planning on getting permits?
Any electrical work?


Well, that's enough for now. :eek: :D This will give us an idea of what you are dealing with. Budget, skills etc are next. Maybe give us a hint too. Like I said, it all has a bearing.
fitZ :)
 
Wow! OK, Fitz. Now I understand: this is complicated shit. Thanks a million for drilling that into my hard head. So, this is what I'm gonna do. Tomorrow I'm going shopping for some design software and I'm gonna draw up the basement as it is. I'm not moving in permenantly until Nov. 20 so I can't get all the detailed info you pointed to, yet. That'll have to wait. But, to answer a few of you're questions -- I'm gonna play hard rock, I have two neighbors (one to the north, one east), I'm in a Denver suburb and this will be below the livingroom. But, I know all that's matters little without the other info, so, for now I'll just keep reading and learning until I can't gather ALL the measurements and other info.

Fitz, I want to thank you for taking the time to type all those words to educate an inexperienced knuckle head like me. I want you to know I really appreciate it. I'll be back in a few weeks hopefully prepared. Thanks again.

Cheers,

Hummarstra
 
I'm in a Denver suburb and this will be below the livingroom. But, I know all that's matters little without the other info, so, for now I'll just keep reading and learning until I can't gather ALL the measurements and other info.


OH MY GOD!! :rolleyes: I knew it! Denver. I ALMOST said I bet you lived there. The ONLY place I know of where you will find a wood floor in a basement. Hummarstra, I have some additional info for you that is VERY IMPORTANT, and your studio project DEPENDS on some information that you MUST get.
A year ago, a gentleman from Denver posted some questions about building a studio in a basement also. He learned from the Building Inspection Department that CODE in his area(but MAYBE not yours) REQUIRED, all basement INTERIOR PARTITION WALLS to be HUNG......or SUSPENDED from the floor ABOVE :eek: :eek: :( . Because of soil conditions there, floors in basements cannot be used to support additional loads in basements. NOW, I don't want to imply that this is YOUR condition also. ONLY MAYBE. But what IS important, is for YOU to check with BID(Building inspection department) and find out what the deal is with your location and any reletive codes that place restrictions on this type of "remodeling". Studio walls are extremely heavy, so you REALLY need to know what you are dealing with in reality here.
If this is indeed the case, this now would imply placeing loads on the floor above, which now must be capable of supporting this additional weight, AND transferring this additional load to the exterior concrete "walls", which in reality are the footings or foundation for the house. It is because of this "soil" condition problem there, that addional loads MAY NOT be permitted. I don't know, but it is better to be armed with correct information than not, in this case. Well, I am out of time, and thanks for the thanks. :D Good luck with BID. It sounds like you also MAY have to get permits for this or face consequences that COULD place your home insurance, not to mention the house it self, in jeprody should you proceed without permits and inspection.
Hope this helps prevent that.
fitZ :confused: :)

PS. It is because of these soil conditions that concrete floor SLABS are not used in a basement. At least from what I understand.
 
Holy smokes, Fitz!!!! This is just getting worse and worse! LOL! Come to think of it, Fitz, you're exactly right because of something I forgot to mention earlier: there is a large steel support beam running the entire length of the basement right down the center. BINGO!! Yep, it's trasfering all the weight to the outside concrete walls. (You should get a prize for knowing that!) Well, it's gotta be up to code and legit because here's the deal: my girlfriend really OWNS this house, not me. So, she will not allow me to do anything unscrupulous that might ruin the value of the house. So, if I can't build it, I can't build it. But, anyway thanks for that minor observation. I'll follow your advice and talk to the BID.

Thanks.

P.S. Not all houses in Denver have wooden floors in the basements. When we were shopping for houses we saw plenty with concrete floors.
 
So, if I can't build it, I can't build it. But, anyway thanks for that minor observation. I'll follow your advice and talk to the BID.

Hello again. Hummarstra, I hope you didn't get the impression I was telling you that you COULDN"T build, only there are conditions there that MAY require DIFFERENT techniques, and these techniques require certain conditions to exist before you can. But you are the only one that can tell, and by talking to BID, this will inform you of the codes in your area. But even then, I'm not sure they will tell you, as the NORM, is submitting a set of plans, and THEN they tell you whether or not your plans comply with the local codes. Don't take my word on this though. Just talk to them first.
fitZ :)
 
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