fat_fleet
Swollen Member
You should make another album like Nebraska.
Do you think there is more for you to learn about songwriting ?
- Thread starter grimtraveller
- Start date
You should make another album like Nebraska.
Chili
Site Moderator
Nah, Citizen77 isn't barry/Bruce.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Hmm... I suppose you would know because YOU ARE!!
Nice cover Bruce, posing as a long-time member.....
Chili
Site Moderator
Hmm... I suppose you would know because YOU ARE!!
Nice cover Bruce, posing as a long-time member.....
Ah, I see you have been listening to my music.
citizen77
New member
My name is Jon Visser. Not that is matters. There is too much crap being written here without any facts that needs to be corrected. There are some people here who've given helpful (and truthful/scientific) reasons. If I stated something incorrect, I want to be corrected. (just like someone who writes a crappy song and gets help) I have no problem with confrontation, but read those books first before giving more opinions. What is "Nebraska?"
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Has someone been banned for disagreeing with me ? Blimey !
For the record, I don't regard any of the replies in this thread so far as an attack or even close.
Some of yours however, are leaning in that direction. But I don't mind. I don't shut down free speech.
Even if anyone was attacking me, I'm a big boy now. I neither cry about it nor get anyone into trouble over it.
Please, please don't do that. I might become famous.
I am not responsible for what another songwriter thinks.
a]Everybody's ?
b]I don't feel the need.
c]Are you aware of this strange activity that humans have developed called "conversation" ? You know, where a person says something and someone replies and gives their own thoughts ?
d]I happen to have found the posts/opinions here that I've replied to worthy of thoughtful response. As a person I value other people and what they have to say. If I happen to disagree with some of what they say, their opinion is no less valuable.
If you believe in the free speech you claim to in your opening sentence, why do you deny me the same freedom ? Am I not free to reply to 12 points if someone else is free to make 12 interesting points ?
Is that a serious question or a somewhat childish angry response to.....to what ?
Of course I know something. Everybody knows something.
No, I do not have links to my music. Quite how that invalidates my opinion, you'll have to enlighten me.
Do I like to hear myself speak ? Yeah. Don't you ?
Are you saying blatantly that I should just shurrup and not express my opinion ?
Yeah. And I happen to think that within that number of dedicated people and those who don't dedicate their lives to writing songs but have been at it for a long time anyway, that some will reach a point where there's nothing left for them to learn about songwriting because they have been doing it for a sufficiently long time.
Many will disagree with me. I'm not going to have them 'neutralized' for doing so. Because unlike you, I welcome a wide variety of opinion and enjoy debate and conversation, both of which, by their very nature require differing shades or opposing sides of opinion.
Rather silly to start a thread with a contentious question if that was the case, don't you think ?
If my 'rebuts' really said nothing, why did you post one of the longest posts of the thread to grizzle about them ?
By the way, a little observation; the main contributors to this site aren't interested in whether people seem smart. And believe me, I don't have to make myself seem smart. I know my limitations. Don't ask me about the best compression settings for a bluegrass/Indian raga fusion recorded in a field.........
This may surprise you, but there's nothing more I can learn from the Beatles.
I also happen to disagree with them on a great many things, such as Paul saying you can't write songs on a bass guitar or him saying that if a song you've written is good enough, you'll remember it and won't have to put it on tape or write it down to remember it.
Loads of people will thoroughly and totally disagree with you about this.
I would not be one of them.
The variety of music I love starts right back from the period that the so called 'classical composers' were knocking out their sterling pieces hundreds of years ago, right up to the modern day stuff on some Disney soundtrack kiddie movies like "Starstruck" and "Rags". I have a healthy respect for all kinds of writers from slushy pop, heavy rock, free jazz, complex stuff, simplistic stuff, mind numbing 'lowest common denominator' stuff, innovative stuff, unashamed copycats, the most commercial pap to the most avant garde ramblings.
In my posts here I try to reflect that when I can.
This thread is not about whether one can learn from previous generations. I don't dispute that. I believe that anyone that writes songs has, either very consciously or somewhat unconsciously studied songwriting or songwriters, even when they don't know who the writers may be.
No, the topic at hand is simply is it arrogant to say there is nothing new you can learn as regards songwriting ? I'm curious why that seems to have burned you up so much. I'm not in any way critical of someone who still feels that they have lots to learn or will always. They're not some inferior species. That's how they feel. Neither do I think that anyone that feels there is nothing new for them to learn is an arrogant fool in the throes of mass self denial.
But I will question the notion that one can never stop learning about writing songs because after all these years of listening, reading and doing, it's what I happen to believe.
I could've kept it to myself I suppose, but I happen to be interested in and enjoy others' take on this.
Actually, both had had a go at writing songs as teenagers before they ever met.
They learned well. Whenever they learned a new chord, they'd write a song around it. I used to incorporate new chords learned into songs. I think loads of people do that.
But that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not they would ever reach a stage where they felt there was nothing new for them to learn.
Equally, that stage may never have come in their existences.
When George Martin talked to them about their songs early on in their careers, they listened because he and he alone held the reins of power. He was the one that could let them carry on or axe them. All A&R men had that power in those days.
But they did listen too. Partly because what big George said went, but also because they had it pointed out to them in no uncertain terms that there was now a big difference between knocking out live renditions of their songs without actually hearing objectively how they came across and getting the essence of the song they were doing onto a record that had to translate onto radios and record players.
So in essence they became a different band once they got signed.
Martin was a good editor, he'd give advice/instructions about things like intros & outros, middle 8s, choruses and instruments they could use to make already lovely songs unassailable.
They learned well.
By 1967 he already recognized that he was becoming surplus to requirements. If you've ever read their official biography, the Hunter Davies one, read what he says in the latter parts. He describes himself as "clinging onto the last vestiges of power."
Within a year, his power was gone and they were no longer listening to him. By the White album, no one and I mean no one, could tell the Beatles how to write songs and what was and wasn't going on a Beatle album. Martin wanted that album to be a super single one with "strong" songs. They said, in essence, "fuck off." So now we have the joys of "Revolution 9" and "Wild honey pie" etc.
So your point is applicable, but only really up to a point. And this bears out the thrust of the topic because they reached a point where there was nothing further they felt they could learn from him. They'd learned what they needed. And it got worse {for George Martin} during the "Get back" {Let it be } sessions.
Until John felt he no longer needed Paul's input on his songs, Paul presented his songs as fait accomplis with everyone's parts worked out and George continually resented Paul's condescending attitude towards his songs and John's lack of enthusiasm for them.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Yes! "What is Nebraska" is correct for the daily double!
citizen77
New member
Damm you and your daily doubles you brigand! One day it'll be my turn, Trebek!
XploZiveToyz
All American Un-American
Damn! Been busy since I last visited this thread. LOL! I removed the overly large pictures of my latest stringed acquisition, so hopefully this thread will now download faster! LOL!
Usually 10 to 15 minutes.
Nothing to brag about. I don't often get on these forums. The initial question jumped out of the page. I've always found answering questions like this always receives a prompt reply.
Maybe my answer was a little too deep. Nothing suspicious intended. Some of us get on with technology and some of us don't. I fall in with the latter. Two and a half years is quite a reasonably time scale. The world is too fast.
Nothing to brag about. I don't often get on these forums. The initial question jumped out of the page. I've always found answering questions like this always receives a prompt reply.
Maybe my answer was a little too deep. Nothing suspicious intended. Some of us get on with technology and some of us don't. I fall in with the latter. Two and a half years is quite a reasonably time scale. The world is too fast.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
It was meant to.
Of all the descriptions I could apply, "a little too deep" is not one of them.
If anyone could seriously say they have no more to learn regarding songwriting then they would be the most pompous and close minded person I would have ever met. The most successful writers in Nashville have ongoing co-writing sessions with other writers. As such, they are constantly learning from those around them. Any writer who is not constantly learning and evolving is stuck in a rut and likely just writing the same songs over and over again.
Also wanted to mention that aspiring and established writers in Nashville visit open mics and writers nights on a regular basis to play, listen and network. Its great to learn from other really good writers. Unfortunately, in a lot of cities or towns this could be an entire waste of time because the level of writing is pretty bad. I would say in my city 20 percent of writers are good while 80 percent are garbage...But from my time spent in Nashville, I can say it is the complete reverse there. Its like going from a farm team to the majors. However, its not possible for everyone to relocate to Nashville (myself included), so I try to make the most of what I have and attend open mics when I can in my home city and head down to Nashville for a 'working' vacation once a year.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
That they may be, but it would not invalidate their feeling that there is nothing new they can learn about writing songs.
Not necessarily. Combining with other writers does not mean you're learning anything new, any more than playing music with someone you've not played before with automatically means you are learning something new.
Well, they may be stuck in a rut. Or, having been involved in writing for so long they might just as easily have such a deep well from which to draw, and the ability to come up with loads of different songs and different kinds of songs.
Here's something for you to chew on - fuck nashville.
Not everyone wants to write empty vapid easily digestible pop country garbage for the idiot bible belt of america.
You say someone like me is pompous and closed minded, okay cool. You can say that. I say someone like you is weak and insecure. Unsure of yourself. Desperate for approval. Cowardly. Man up.