Do you really need expensive stuff?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harvey Gerst
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bubbagump said:
No reverb or compression either (which is what I was meaning)? if so, wowser, that IS a good sounding room.
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I added a little reverb on the snare, but that's all. No compression or other enhancements on the raw drum tracks.

The stereo drum tracks were then run thru the Ozone Izotope program (that I used to process the whole song), using the same settings as the final complete songs.

A few people wanted to hear the drum tracks by themselves, so I went back to the multi-track, muted everything but the drums, and printed that to a stereo mix.
Then I ran it thru the Izotope, since that's what you heard on the completed tracks.
 
And I'm not trying to pass this stuff off as the best drum tracks I've ever recorded; it's just a typical session. But there are some things a few people can learn from this.

Take another look at the picture I put up. See the high hat mic? It's outside the set, pointed toward the center of the hats. Why? That way, I used the hats to physically block the mic's view of the snare. That gave me just the sound of the hats, without a lot of snare bleed.

The mic for the kick is inside the kick, pointed at where the beater hits the head, BUT the mic is angled inside - towards the floor tom. Why? To cut down on the bleed from the snare. Just a little, but every little bit helps.

It's attention to the details that makes the difference between a good sound and a mediocre sound.

If anybody's interested, I'll be happy to go into my mindset (and my standard routine) when I'm tweaking the drum tracks at the start of a session.
 
jonmatthews said:
Love to get inside your head, Harvey! :)

Fire away...

Jon M
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Okay, after the drums are set up, I have the drummer actually play a song while I stand in front of the set and listen. I watch where the drummer hits stuff (so I can keep the mics out of his way), and I'm noticing whether he's light or heavy on any of the drums or cymbals. I'm also deciding if maybe another snare might be better. Usually, we go with whatever snare the drummer feels most comfortable with.

Now, I get down and stick the kick mic in the drum (as described earlier). It's usually the ATM25 or a D112.

Snare mic is set up in the space between the crash and the high hat, about 1" above the rim, 1" in, and pointed at the center of the snare, but also kinda away from the hats. It's usually a Shure SM57, but I'll sometimes use a Beyer M201 for a little more definition; same location.

For rack toms, I'll use a couple of Sennheiser 504's or 604's; same mic, positioned about like the snare mic (about 1" above the rim, 1" in), but pointed about halfway between the center and the rim of the drums.

Floor tom will be either a Sennheiser 421, an AT Pro25, or another 504/604; all work pretty well there, but if I have time, I'll usually pick the 421 first. Same positioning as the rack toms.

Overheads can be any of the mics I mentioned before, positioned anywhere from 18" to 30" above the cymbals.

If there's a lot of high hat stuff, I'll add a mic (as described earlier), but usually the overhead mics work fine for picking up the hats. Once everything is miked up, I go into the control room, and the conversation (and my thinking) goes like this:

Me: "Can you hit the kick?"
Thinking: This song has a lot of bottom end stuff, so maybe add a little more click at 3 to 6KHz. Boost the pot and sweep till I find the click jumping out at me. Hmm. a little "woofy"; let's cut around 250 to 400 Hz, and sweep till I knock out the "woof".

Me: "OK, lemme hear the snare, please."
Thinking: I want more crack in the snare. Punch up 12KHz, and if that don't do it, sweep with the midrange around 6KHz. Roll off everything below 80Hz. Listen some more. Am I hearing too much of some range? What range? Find it and kill it. Add a little reverb in the headphone mix, but not to tape.

...The rest to follow.
 
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Harvey Gerst said:
Two on each wall, arranged so they can overlap to expose or cover more wall as needed. I use some L Brackets, 1/4-20 bolts and nuts to pivot them on the wall. Like this:
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I did something similiar and yes out of a dumpster. They were redoing the interior of an office building and they threw away a lot of tall wooden vertical blinds. I used strips of acoustic foam on one side of the blinds and left the other as is (hard wood) This allows me to go from completely dead to very live, with everything in between too.
 
chance said:
I did something similar and yes out of a dumpster. They were redoing the interior of an office building and they threw away a lot of tall wooden vertical blinds. I used acoustic foam on one side of the blinds and left the other as is (hard wood) This allows me to go from completely dead to very live, with everything in between too.
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That sounds very cool - great idea!!!
 
Good sounds. To my ears, the V67 was the star of the show on those BK vocals. Warm, smooth very nice.

The only comment and maybe its my system but the lead vocal sets a little left in the stereo field. Maybe that was your intent, I would have set that one right up the middle.
 
Middleman said:
The only comment and maybe its my system but the lead vocal sets a little left in the stereo field. Maybe that was your intent, I would have set that one right up the middle.
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Actually, Heather's lead vocal is straight down the center, and just a hair louder than the BGV's. You're hearing her "shouts" answer vocal, which I did pan to the left a bit, and cranked the hell out of it.
 
Just tried a really cool trick:

Opened Adobe Audition (but any multi-track software should work).

Loaded the full mp3 track of "Rejoice".

Then loaded the drums only version.

Shaved a few frames off the drums track then slid the drum track to align it to the two full tracks. Easy to do because the song starts with two drum hits.

Lowered the main track about 12 dB, and bingo, it was instant "hear what the drums are doing" throughout the whole song.
 
Thanks for the posting the drum tracks, Harvey! They sound great!

Keep telling us your approach to record drums, please! :D

btw, is it me or the drummer is way more sloppy on Who You Are..?
 
yes and no. Of course those of us with ears know given the same folks and the same engineer it would sound better done with high end equipment. You and I both know you can hear the difference between a topaz and a neve and a studer 2" and pro-tools HD. Sounds pretty good although to much high frequency content for my taste or too "sizzly" if you prefer home recording terminology.
 
sweetnubs said:
yes and no. Of course those of us with ears know given the same folks and the same engineer it would sound better done with high end equipment. You and I both know you can hear the difference between a topaz and a neve and a studer 2" and pro-tools HD. Sounds pretty good although to much high frequency content for my taste or too "sizzly" if you prefer home recording terminology.
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even inexperienced ears can hear the difference between tape and digital given the opportunity. much like the difference between solid state and valve amps for guitar or a u87 and one of it's chinese clones. that's not to say there aren't ways to get in the ballpark using inexpensive gear.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
The mic for the kick is inside the kick, pointed at where the beater hits the head, BUT the mic is angled inside - towards the floor tom. Why? To cut down on the bleed from the snare. Just a little, but every little bit helps.
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How far from the batter head is the mic? The reason I ask is I wonder how angling the mic effects the pickup of the drum's "slap" if it gets too off axis.
 
bubbagump said:
How far from the batter head is the mic? The reason I ask is I wonder how angling the mic effects the pickup of the drum's "slap" if it gets too off axis.
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I usually try for about 3 to 4" away from the head, pointed towards the beater contact spot. The mic is actually a couple of inches to the right of center, pointing through the contact point, towards the floor tom.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
I usually try for about 3 to 4" away from the head, pointed towards the beater contact spot. The mic is actually a couple of inches to the right of center, pointing through the contact point, towards the floor tom.
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Dig, makes sense.
 
...continuing the thought process.

Me: High tom, please.
Thinking: Grab the low/mid sweep and turn it till the drum gets a lot louder. Kill as much as possible below that point, and maybe add some click for definition.

Me: Mid tom, please.
Thinking: Grab the low/mid sweep and turn it till the drum gets a lot louder. Kill as much as possible below that point, and maybe add some click for definition.

Me: Floor tom.
Thinking: Grab the low/mid sweep and turn it till the drum gets a lot louder. Kill as much as possible below that point, and maybe add some click for definition. Note: The floor tom will sit there and resonate every time the other drums are going. You can either mute it by hand in your DAW, or add a gate AFTER you've done the track.

Me: Can you hit all the cymbals?
Thinking: I usually kill everything below 80 Hz, and maybe boost 12KHz a bit. I usta pan hard left and right, but lately, I bring them in a little closer, so they're not as wide.

Me: High hat, please.
Thinking: About the same as the cymbals. For most hard rock groups, I don't even bother miking the high hat.

Me: Can I hear the whole set, please. Just play one of the songs you're gonna be doing.
Thinking: Here's the first time I'm hearing the whole set over the speakers, and where I'll adjust levels, panning, and touch up eq, if needed.

I'm also watching out to make sure there's room for everything else that's gonna be in the song. Who's gonna own the very bottom end of the song; the drums, or the bass? Who's gonna own the low mids; the bass, the guitar, or the singer? I try to make sure that everything in the song has its own space, and that there are no conflicts between all the parts. I'll fix any conflicts with eq, panning, or volume adjustments.

That's about it. My son Alex does it a little differently; he will use as many as 3 mics on the kick - and 3 mics on the snare; two mics on top of the snare, and 1 mic below the snare.
 
So you are tracking post EQ? What is your reasoning for that versus recording whatever the mic gives you flat and EQing after the fact during mixing?
 
bubbagump said:
So you are tracking post EQ? What is your reasoning for that versus recording whatever the mic gives you flat and EQing after the fact during mixing?
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It gets me into the ballpark quicker at mixdown time, and the musicians appreciate the higher quality of the headphone mix while tracking.

Now, I don't mess with eq on any tracks that might need punch-ins days later (like vocals or lead guitars); those, I record flat. I will use some compression on singers while tracking.
 
sweetnubs said:
Sounds pretty good although to much high frequency content for my taste or too "sizzly" if you prefer home recording terminology.
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I have read a couple of posts like this. It sounds fine to me. Could it be the MP3 conversion? Could it be the ears? I have gotten a response like this on my own mixes on occasion. After reading this, I am reminded that I am in my mid 60's and played bass for 30 years with 16 10'" speakers and 320 watts of power on my SVT, and there is no doubt hearing loss. Perhaps I might adjust my 4311's to show more "HI's" so in translation, there will be less hi's. The problem there is when I mix for a producer, they will get a "false sense" of what is really there. If I could rig a quick A/B switch (one for my ears, and one for younger ears), that might be useful to give a correct translation. I don't use a graphic EQ on my monitor system, but maybe a graphic with "recall" might do the trick. Any thoughts/ideas?
 
Yeah, I'm 70 and my high end hearing is pretty well shot (same excuse, Chance).

It doesn't sound like it has excessive highs to me, but maybe it does. I can't fix what I can't hear. I ran a frequency analysis on all 3 tracks and they don't show any high end boost.
 
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