Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[Giganova]

Toker41: I think I morphed a few characters of this thread into a single fictious poster. Anyway, lets just forget the whole thing, ok? Peace!

P.S.: I noticed your reputation points are back in the green. Seems like someone here likes you

 

[DaveO]

Clearly the people defending software piracy have no concept of what it takes to run, and continue successfully running, a business. A given software package doesn't cost what it does because senior management sits in a conference room sipping brandy and smoking expensive cigars while they laugh their asses off about the outrageous markup they're going to rape poor people for. No company can stay in business if they operate that way.

Yet that seems to be the general impression presented by the pro-piracy camp. They never have any consideration for all the not-highly-paid, hard-working people at those companies that piracy puts at risk. People like the the janitor, the secretary, the guy in shipping and receiving, the office manager, the programmers that really aren't making all that much money, etc.

Most cars cost a lot more than "overpriced" software, yet would any of these people attempt to steal a car that they intend to use for their long-term transportation needs? Would they find a vacant house with a for sale sign up and just start moving their stuff in and begin living there? Would they walk into the local music store and and just take an "overpriced" guitar off the wall and walk out of the store with it? Would they walk into a liquor store, ask for a keg, and then try to leave without ever paying for it?

The answer of course to all these questions is of course a huge "Hell no!!!" Why? Because there's too big a risk of getting caught. Sitting in the privacy of your home and stealing software is simply too fucking easy. If you think you're advancing such a noble cause then how about putting your money where your mouth is? Let's see you regularly walk into stores and simply take whatever you "need" without ever making an attempt to pay for it. Until you can do that you're simply a coward hiding behind a weak excuse.

Want a great example of just how much these greedy fat cats make on their overpriced products? There is an excellent article in the July 5, 2004, issue of Forbes magazine on Dan Lakin, the founder of Lakland basses. He makes some very expensive but damn fine instruments. If you have the patience to spend 10 minutes reading that article you'll see that he is NOT laughing all the way to the bank everytime some "sucker" like me buys one of his overpriced instruments (yes, I really an extremely satisfied Lakland owner, and I'm damn proud to be one of the lucky few supporting this guy and his employees). If you have any semblance of an open mind maybe this article will help bring some new perspective to your views on piracy.

 

[DaveO]

I hope that all those who anonymously gave me negative rep for my comments on this topic will find that last post a little more factual rather than simply the kind of post that offers the kinds of comments I got - comments such as "Go fuck yourself you fucking cocksucker.".

And to Blue Bear and Chris, I'm the one who gave you some rep for taking your positions. Not only am I man enough to tell them I gave it to you, I'm doing it publicly! Why is is that people who make comment like those I got never have the guts to put their names in them?

Anyway, I seriously suggest reading that article to see just how much money these small companies "rake in at the expense of the poor".

 

[Toker41]

Damn! What is it with the missuse of rep feedback? Wow, real clear to see what is child, and what is adult on that issuse. It's just a friendly debate, no need for people to be dicks about it.

 

[Gunther]

I think anyone who considers recording software expensive is crazy. Not to many years ago, you would have to spend bunches of money to get half the features and sound quality we now take for granted.

I’m not exactly morally opposed to software piracy in general, but I do think its right to reward a good innovative product with fair payment. I own my copy of Sonar.

But if they charged $1200 for the software I’d probably try to rip it off (hey… they’d be trying to rip me off at that price.) I don’t equate software piracy to stealing a guitar and I won’t do that until the day we can replicate a guitar perfectly and instantly at virtually no cost. The rules are a little grey in the information age.

- Gunther

 

[Giganova]

Result of the Poll

I find the result of the poll interesting: it appears that less than half of all voters actually buy their software. This means that software could be half as expesive if everyone would buy it!

 

[the tortoise]

Way back when I knew nothing about anything, a friend of mine was round my house and said he had a copy of a program called Reason and asked if I wanted to try it out.

I said sure, why not (I thought that everybody did this. Ignorance is my excuse, though a reprehensible one). I tried it out, had an epiphany moment and loved it dearly.

So what did I do? I went out and bought the software. I felt that they deserved my money and my support. Not only that, but I told everyone who would listen how great this program was, giving Propellerheads some great marketing and hype that I know for a fact sold a few more copies of their software.

The fact remains, though, that without piracy I would not have had the opportunity to experience the software (remember, I knew nothing about the audio world, how it works and what was out there and how to get demos and stuff - there are a huge amount of people who are just like this; they want to make music on their computer and have no idea how it all works so they get a copy of what their friend has or what they've heard of. It's the professionals who pirate that are the true problem). The result was a new member of their customer base and an increase in their fanbase through my constant plugging of their stuff to my friends.

Nowadays, I know what software I need for my studio so I budget for it, research it and buy it from the cheapest seller possible. This way I get customer support, upgrades, free stuff and a reliable, stable system. Not only for these reasons; I love to give credit where it's due and I love to give support to people who make a quality product. These companies tend to be made of a few talented people trying to make something cool for people to be creative with - they deserve our cash.

So, in conclusion - if you need a particular piece of software, consider it to be of good quality and will use it extensively in your creative life, then you should buy it, no question. If you can't afford it then either save up (getting the satisfaction of having earnt the right to use it), or look for a cheaper alternative or freeware that will do the job until you can - there are plenty of options out there.

However, the world of piracy still remains a slightly ambiguous topic (as this thread shows). from my own experience, I know that it can actually help the companies involved if it gets someone familiar and fond of their software and makes their particular program something that is widely used throughout the recording world with a good reputation.

It's the people who will not buy software on principal that are the true thieves. There is simply no excuse for using a product that has taken so much to make with absolutely no regard for the people behind it, purely for your own selfish purposes.

These are a few of my thoughts on this thorny issue. Take them as you will.

Peace


the tortoise

 

[DaveO]

Gunther, I disagree with the idea a guitar is any different from "information", such as software. There is still a production process the manufacturer has to go through, salaries to be paid, lease on the building to pay every month whether they make a sale or not, utility costs, capital improvements and infrastructure, employees benefits, some amount of managment to make sure the business is operating in the black, etc. The fact that it can be copied does NOT mean the copmany lost the $0.20 it cost for the blank CD a pirate downloaded it onto. The loss to the company is the margin they would have gotten from that unit.

Let's use your SONAR example (I'm a SONAR user too, for the record). If it cost $1200, I can guarantee that the $1200 price tag would have less than 1% percent to do with how much they can gouge from the consumer. It would have everything to do with what their development team can deliver in a given time frame, the support they anticipate for the buyers, the cost of updates given away before the next release, their recurring fixed costs, what similar products are selling for in the market, and all kinds of other things they need to cover expenses for before they can make a dime on the software.

The fact that software can be replicated perfectly while a guitar can't shouldn't have anything to do with anything from the consumers point of view. There's still a product to be paid for. The only real difference is that the software companies actually have to factor in people that people will proudly steal from them. Fender, Gibson, et. al. don't have that kind of problem. If people wouldn't pirate it simply because it's easy to pirate it AND not get caught, they wouldn't have to raise the prices by some amount to compensate for that kind of loss.

And for the record I'll state my opnion on the the argument that even more people would buy the software if the manufacturers didn't build in the cost of piracy into their pricing - it's complete crap. That argument comes ONLY from the people who steal it in the first place and is simply another weak argument they use to try to rationalize something they know is wrong ( note I intentionally NEVER used the word moral). Do you really think these people would suddenly stop pirating a specific piece of software the second they find out that manufacturer does NOT build theft into their pricing model? Give me a fucking break, of COURSE they'll continue to pirate it. They'll just move on to the next weak excuse.

I still stand by my claim that anyone who uses the "greedy fat cat" argument knows NOTHING about what it takes to produce and sell a product that can compete in the market place. It could be software, it could be toothpaste, it could be CD jewel boxes, whatever. They simply have no clue. If those people know so much about how the fat cats are fucking the little guy, then let them get off their butts and make a software package that the little guy can afford and is still a damn fine product. Can you think of any better way to stick it to a greedy fat cat then by beating him at his own game and putting him out of business? I can't. Stealing from him is simply a weak, cowardly way of rationalizing your weakness as a human being.

Oh, and my bad, Antonio Flavioli already wrote n-Track and has proved you CAN beat the big guys at their own game. For the record I'm a former n-Track user and changed to SONAR only because the people I'm writing/recording with right now already use SONAR. I bought it just for that compatibility, though I also think it's a nice product. Anyway, if you can undercut Antonio's pricing while delivering an even better product then he does I will sincerely offer you my congratulations. That would be a hell of a feat and you would of course deserve all the riches you could get from it. No, stating that I'd congratualte you is NOT bullshit or sarcasm, that's the honest truth.

So now let the negative rep continue to be heaped upon me for exposing these swarthy pirates for what they are.

 

[DaveO]

Damn! What is it with the missuse of rep feedback? Wow, real clear to see what is child, and what is adult on that issuse. It's just a friendly debate, no need for people to be dicks about it.

I know we disagree on this issue, but I'm glad to see at least someone on the other side of the fence is keeping a somewhat level head. You're alright.

 

[Giganova]

The fact remains, though, that without piracy I would not have had the opportunity to experience the software

You could have just as well downloaded the demo software and try it out. Alternatively, there are a few magazines that have a demo versions on CD-ROM included in almost every issue (Future Music, Computer Music, etc).

But you have a valid point that sometimes its better to have a fully-functional demo to play around with. I was amazed that I recently noticed that even Microsoft has a 30-day FULLY functional demo (incl saving, printing, etc) of the Office package for download on their website. Played around with it and guess what: I order it.

 

[Altaire]

A friend of mine was working at Sonic Foundry here in Madison for almost five years and got laid off along with a bunch of other programmers b/c the company couldn't afford to pay them anymore. He was only making about $30k, which just about covers the cost of living here. Was piracy a reason for this? I don't know. But when potential customers are taking shit rather than buying it, it is cutting into companies bottom line.

no companies cut people because they dont want to cut profits, not because they cant afford to pay people. And 30K is what you call poor? sitting back and getting 25k in unemployment is poor? cmon duke these companies are still cleaning up big time

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

...these companies are still cleaning up big time

This is fundamentally wrong. Not only are the audio plugin and multitrack software companies NOT big corporate money machines, but they aren't raking it in. Even what seem to some to be exhorbitant prices they DON'T sell enough copies to be "cleaning up."

Sorry, but this statement is just flat out wrong. Arguements supporting the piracy of audio software that are based on it are also flat out wrong.

(Try $14,000 for a 1" 24 track home recording tape machine 12 years ago. That was unheard of cheap at the time....)

This reallly seems to be the core of the arguement- whether or not you believe the audio software companies are gouging us or not. Unless that point can be resolved there really isn't much to discuss. You either believe that or you don't... its like Christians and Jews arguing over who the messiah is or isn't. There's no common ground on which to agree.

Anyway. Peace,
Chris

 

[DaveO]

no companies cut people because they dont want to cut profits, not because they cant afford to pay people. And 30K is what you call poor? sitting back and getting 25k in unemployment is poor? cmon duke these companies are still cleaning up big time

Have you ever managed people and finances? Do you have any idea what having that kind of responsibility is like? Do you have any idea of the pressure to find ways to ride out funding shortages so you don't have to lay people off - people you know, trust, and depend on to get the job done? Any idea of how much of a financial burden it is to lay those people off or offer early retirement packages to those who might qualify? Any idea of the outrageous cost to recruit, hire, and train new people when things get better and you finally have to bring old people back or new people in?

OK, I'm all ears, let's see some analysis to back up your assertion. Pick a company and check their annual report. There's loads of data in those reports and if you're talking about a publicly traded company the reports are available to the anyone. You should have no trouble finding all the ammo you need to prove your point in them.

This ought to be good ...

 

[Gunther]

You have to total the software company’s loss a little different to be accurate.

There IS development, design and programming time for software, and the people who make that happen certainly want to be paid. The overhead for workspace / equipment / etc is certainly not free either. I certainly agree with all that.

However there is virtually no raw material cost… It costs virtually as much to design and develop make one copy as it does to make 60,000. So loss from theft is not in hard raw material and processing loss (as it would be if you ripped off a peavy amp or something.)

------

To find the loss you would have to figure out sales loss, and thats not as straightforward as is being suggested. Here is how you figure sales loss:

If you buy the software for $300 and use it, the company makes $300.

If you pirate the software, but would have bought it if you couldn’t pirate the software, then this is a legit $300 loss.

If you pirate it but would NOT have bought it if you couldn’t pirate the software, then there is no real loss to the company.
This is a sale they would not have had anyway.

----------

The true cost of piracy is the difference between the sales in a piracy free world and actual sales.

I’d guess that 50 – 75% of those who pirate would not have been customers if they had to pay.
Not that this makes pirating right.

Just my opinion though….

- Gunther

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Man, this thread is STILL going on??? I've never seen such a gathering of clueless fuckwits as the number I've seen in this thread......... unbelievable.....

PS - and the fuckwits know who they are....

 

[earthboundrec]

I had a roommate once that pirated every piece of software known to man. Photoshop, all the audio apps, web design apps, you name it he had it cracked. He asked me to show him how to use Pro Tools, b/c he had just gotten a crack of the latest version. I said, great, now that you have the crack , all you have to do is drop $450 on an Mbox to use it. He says, "No, it's not that version that you have on the laptop, it's the TDM version". I said, "Oh, in that case..."

The dude was a complete wastiod and never learned to adequately use any program he ever had, he was more of collector of illegal apps. One day I go into his room, and his computer won't do anything, I mean, the power light was on and the fan was on and there was a blinking cursor on a black screen but that was it. I ask, "So, were you using a cracked copy of Windows as well?" He was. I laughed!

 

[DaveO]

Gunther I gotta disagree 100%. Suppose you HATE Squier guitars (for the record I have one of them too and love it) so obviously you'd never buy one. Then suppose you walk into a music store and for some reason take one off the wall and start playing.

After messing with it for a while and trying it in a few different amps that you mist have at home. You think to yourself, "Hmmmmm, it's realy cheap, but you know what? It's not so bad for $99. I think I'll just walk out of the store with it. Never know when I'll want that exact sound in a song I'm recording."

You never would have bought one, but now you have it and only use it once a year or so. No big deal, right? WRONG!!!!!!!!! It's now in your possession which means you stole it. I don't understand how you can say software is different. You have it in your possession without paying for it, therefore you stole it and the company lost a sale it should have had. The fact that you didn't steal it from a typical "inventory" is immaterial. You stole intellectual property (yes, that's a real term and the business takes it seriously).

 

[Toker41]

So wait...
You are saying that by downloading pirate software to try before I buy instead of a demo...I am stealing? If I buy it after trying it....how is it stealing? If I don't buy it, because I don't' like it...and delete it....how is that stealing? The company lost no sale.



Also, it's worth mentioning here, 99% of all pirate software is WAY buggy, and eventually becomes more trouble than it is worth. Most people that download pirated software find this on their own in time. Also, if a guy is just a "collector" of pirate software (and I know a few people like this), then the company is not losing any sale at all, because this person would never have bought this software, and will probably never really use it. If it is not a potential costumer that is downloading it, and he never really does use it...there is no lose of sale.

Is there anyone here that uses pirated recording software that can actually post a song they produced with it? I downloaded about 7 products to try them before buying the one I liked (which I did pay for the one I liked, and deleted the rest). Although I could check out each program much better than I could with any demo version....it was still buggy to the point that recording one complete, well produced song, would have been a nightmare.
I also must note that I ended up paying for N-track because it had every feature that the other "major" programs had, but was only $40. Also, I could not find a cracked version of this reasonably priced software anywhere, and did not mind paying $40 before I tried it. I was not, however, going to pay $500 for other programs, and then find I didn't like them....
so, I ask you....am I a thief?

 

[BadAE]

Is this software legal

 

[DaveO]

If the company doesn't offer a good demo, then don't buy their product. How simple is that?

Go a step further then. Email the company and tell them why they lost a potential sale. Visit message boards like this one and blast the company for it as often as the question comes up. In your posts tell people about the great software you bought (n-Track is a hell of a recording package at *any* price) and that you found out how great it was because they, rather than copmany B, offered a good demo. Stress that repeatedly and get other people to do that. Make the issue of bad demos an issue by bringing it up yourself on the company's own forum so they see it first hand from existing customers and especially from potential customers they lost.

The best way to get a company to make a change is to convince them that something they are doing has a direct connection to reduced sales. Downloading cracked versions you yourself acknowledge are buggy at best and damge PC in the worst case will not get them to address a damn thing. Their response will be that the person using a cracked version isn't using a legal, working version any feedback from that person will be WORTHLESS. Think about it in your own your own line of work? How would you respond, or how would you want your management to respond? If they do cater to those people, what kinds of changes or improvements that you as the employee KNOW will be valuable won't get funded? What improvements in your own job or your own productivity won't be addressed? Now the company has disgruntled employess and has both external AND internal problems to contend with. Doesn't sound like they'll be around very long unless they address these things quickly.

Martin Luther King accomplished a hell of a lot by taking the high road (the term "*moral* high road" was purposely avoided). If he convinced his followers to break into white people's homes and lynch them out of revenge do you really think he would have been more effective in bringing about the levels of change and awareness he did? Of course not.

That's of course an exterme example but I chose it to make the point clearer, *not* to equate pirating with lynching. Same thing with companies you buy from. Getting them to work with potential customers who will stick with them over the long term will be a hell of a lot more effective than stealing their product, regardless of the reason. Show them there's a large untapped customer base they couldn't reach before and they may wise up. If not, it's they're the ones taking a risk with their own future. Bottom line, if you can't get what you want before or after the sale then don't buy the product. Like I said at the top, how can it get any simpler than that?!?!