Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[Toker41]

Guys, please observe the sign that says:

Please Do Not Feed The Troll.

 

[pacman9000]

Couldn't agree with you more man.

The whole thing about marketing expenses. I've noticed that these labels are doing less and less to actually market the artists they sign. It seems they are expecting more and more money for less and less work on their part. That could be part of why most of the music out there isn't from anyone who hasn't been well known for some time now. It's a big insestual swingers party and almost the entire creative community isn't invited. I think they are spending FAR less money in marketing costs, as well as the fact that with advances in recording equipment costs, and different choices we have now (not just going into the big studio on a lockout for everything, really good quality gear for hardly anything), it greatly reduces the cost of recording. They have no excuse for their prices. NONE.

I would say prices of these products, if anything, INCREASE piracy, since less people can afford it, they have to get what they need to do their work, or aquire the music that they love in a way that they can afford. The only reason I ever "pirate" any software or music is because I can not afford it at the time, or simply the people who make it are such pricks that I wouldn't give them a penny even if I were a multi billionaire. All of the major media companies are screwing litterally everyone except for themselves, and the politicians they pay to look the other way. The musicians are screwed by it. The consumers are screwed by it. Price fixing is illegal, so are well...pretty much most of the things these SOBs do in their day to day business. Don't even get me started on companies like Clear Channel. There's no way they could continue to do business for a single day longer if they suddenly stopped lining politicians' pockets. They'd probably end up in prison. Most of their hubbub of piracy is due to their loss of total market control, and the fact that now they are forced to compete with other ways of getting music. Now, people don't HAVE to buy music that goes through their channels. Why else would the RIAA fight against artists who wish to release mp3 versions of their music for free online? Why else would the RIAA fight against independant internet radio? (I smell clear channel in that one). And as said before...why else would artists still get such a shitty deal, when the label gets so much? So, people have the nerve to get some music without giving them their cut. Remember when the big 5 lables tried to get iTunes stopped? Remember when Sony records bought mp3.com, (at the time, mp3.com was one of the most increadible strides in helping artists get their music out to people, without lining the pockets of the big media mogouls) only to wait for a few years until everyone forgot about the site, and relaunch it as basically a giant advertizement for Sony Records' artists. I mean, come on. Even when you pirate they get money. There are taxes on recordable media that goes straight to them. I believe even hard drives aren't exempt from this tax. So, if you buy dvdrs or cdrs, even if it's strictly to backup your recording sessions, they get a cut, and a pretty big one at that. They're far from losing any money, and far from hurting. I think it's a great analogy that you said about the airlines and such. It's the same freaking problem. Lobbyists throwing money at all the politicians and therefore making policy, and causing the folks that should put those sheisters into jail to look the other way, and even encourage their illegal business models. They're just as bad as the fucking oil companies, and pharmaseutical companies.

As far as pirating software...some of the prices of these pieces of software are rediculous. The new photoshop CS3 costing almost $2,000 ??? That costs almost as much as my enitre computer. Logic is pretty expensive, but at least you get TOOOOONS of stuff with it (5gb of halfway decent loops, tons of good effects (which are still sometimes just as useable as the top plugins on the market) and really good softsynths. Plus a very configurable and complex program with a lot of horsepower behind it.)Why is it that we have companies such as ohmforce, PSP, and Audio Damage (among many others) who are making jaw dropping audio software (Audio Damage...WOW! plugs like reverance are so nice) and effects for a very reasonable price. I mean, come on...some of these plugins, like URS costing THAT MUCH??? My license of Logic cost not much more than one of their plugin packs. Of course piracy will be rampant. What do they expect? Some people use the excuse that you're paying a premium for pro level tech support. The tech support that I've gotten from any pro software companies has been so far below that of consumer electronics or consumer software companies that I've dealt with. I also find that a lot of software on the pro level, even software that I absolutely love, is much buggier than a lot of consumer software.

Anyway. When all is said and done. Piracy is neither great nor terrible. I always do my best to support software developers and musicians that I enjoy. There are a lot of really great software developers who aren't affiliated with these giant corporations that do actually deserve people's support. I always do my best to purchase, and often do, but I can't say I don't have "aquired" plugins or software that I use.

Also, as a side note about buying music. I spend MUCH more money on music as a result of things like soulseek and bit torrent. It's a really great way of exploring new music, and it's always much nicer to have the actual physical album. Much better quality, and visual art (however, that's starting to get lax with the quality of the packaging. This, I guess is another way that these companies have lessened their investment ammount and kept the price the exact same.)

this couldn't have anything to do with the greedy capitalist system that is united states, could it? nooooooooooooooooo



this country is, for all intents and purposes (besides making money in underhanded ways and exploiting the less-fortunate), DEAD.




Name one major industry or institution in the united states that isn't rife with corrpution and unfair discriminatory practices (against anyone not part of the status quo).



This country is one big joke, the deaths of those college kids doesn't even matter to me, it's funny, this country is a big joke that I laugh at with feeling....media coverage would never be like this for creative individuals outside of the status quo.

KILL THEM ALL

 

[TerraMortim]

Aaaaaaaaaandd.... *ignore list*

sarcasm is wicked isn't it? What's it like not understanding it?

 

[TerraMortim]

this couldn't have anything to do with the greedy capitalist system that is united states, could it? nooooooooooooooooo



this country is, for all intents and purposes (besides making money in underhanded ways and exploiting the less-fortunate), DEAD.




Name one major industry or institution in the united states that isn't rife with corrpution and unfair discriminatory practices (against anyone not part of the status quo).



This country is one big joke, the deaths of those college kids doesn't even matter to me, it's funny, this country is a big joke that I laugh at with feeling....media coverage would never be like this for creative individuals outside of the status quo.

KILL THEM ALL

yeah, that's definately the truth. The US is owned by these coporate asswipes. Every US citizen's entire purpose in life is to make more money for their real government: The banks, big media, pharmaseutical, oil, and airline companies (among others, however those are some of the worst offenders). And believe me, they make sure every citizen does his or her part to fulfil this purpose. Look at most of those big companies and they are all members of the same secret societies, all working together to be in control of everything that we do and say, to ensure their vast fortunes, and complete immunity to any laws that are man made or god given. The only real solution is to destroy the human race, which will inevitably be done without intervention from anyone. I think it's kind of a self eating machine. Many of those companies after wiping out everyone else financially, or god forbid even physically, won't have anyone left to keep their lifestyles, and will start to go after each other.

That whole virginia tech massacre is just another example of how the pharmiseutical industry, as well as law inforcement in the US has failed everyone, in order to line their pockets, and ensure ultimate control over all those below them (almost everyone on earth). He was on Prozac. Doesn't that sound familiar? Yet another one of the drugs that are pushed on people that causes people to litterally lose their minds (it's one of the many drugs of that type that is proven to cause people to do very violent irrational things (as low as strange behaviour, going through to spousal and child abuse, then even killing their spouses, or in these extreme few cases, causing people to just... blow everyone away that they can). The law enforcement have their image as heros more in mind than actually being heros. In this case, as with more and more these days, they held off until the last minute so that the body count could make them seem as if they are even more heroic. As the guy shot all the 57 people the courageous police stopped him, vs...a guy who maybe gets one or two people and the police stop him. They just want the huge pat on the back. Look even how the big media is trying to spin the story into being a "terrorist attack". I mean. WTF! Yet another "terrorist attack" to destract everyone from how bad their ass is getting fucked.It's just propaghanda to make us think that they were right all along.

Ah well, as the entire world goes to hell, at least it provides me with never ending inspiration for music!!!

And yes... KILL THEM ALL!!!! bahahaha

 

[legionserial]

So, you favor capitalism over socialism...it does not surprise me then that you favor the cold, dull, sterility of digital over the organic warmth of Analog.


Just give up you coward, I see right through you, you're a weak person and you're no match for me, the one and only, I tell it like it is with incisive precision.

No...I just favour affordable over expensive. I would have thought that was something anyone could comprehend without a lot of thought... But of course as your ethics are right up shit creek you can just steal everything so cost isn't really a factor to you, isn't that that right pacman?

To be honest, tying a preference for the convenience and lower cost of digital with any kind of political stance suggests, as I have said before, an unhealthy obsession. Not least after your numerous crys of 'violence against the oppressor'. I think you probably need to go get some professional help before you hurt someone. At the moment you sound suspiciously like something as simple as a red star or the letters CCCP could send you into a frenzy of masturbation. Just saying, might want to get that seen to. However, I don't think the mental heath service can help with the fact that you're a fucking moron though, so maybe if your so unhappy with the world, and so keen to show everyone else what a fucking piece of shit you are, maybe self-immolation would be a better option. That way you could avoid a life of capitalism and let everyone know that you are a worthless piece of crap in one fell swoop. Although to be fair you've done a pretty good job of the latter already. So maybe you should just immolate yourself because we don't like you instead!

All in all though, I know we are a page gone, but I had to quote this just for the point and laugh value of the post more than anything else.
Tell it like it is with incisive precision? 'With unwavering pretension' is probably more accurate.

You are a fucking idiot. I don't often do this but you sir warrant it. You have to be one of the most obsessive, dead horse flogging retards I have ever had the misfortune to cross paths with, in real life or on the internet. I am not a violent person, and am not keen on making threats of physical violence, but I swear to god, if you were standing in front of me talking this obsessive cliched crap over and over, I would have knocked you the fuck out by now and so would everyone else I know. Including the residents of the local nunnery.

You live in a capitalist country. Either fucking deal with it or move somewhere else. Stop fuckng fantisizing that one day the entire western world is going to turn round and say "you know what, Pacman was right. What were we thinking? Lets all become communists". Boring people to death with shit you are regurgitating from someone else isn't going to make people change their minds either.

Get a fucking life and stop trying to justify your questionable ethics by blaming the rest of the world. To put it bluntly, you're a stupid c*nt, now fuck off you commie piece of shit!

 

[legionserial]

Can't justify the price...so maybe stealing is a strong word, but it's definitely deception at the very least. I believe the tread has already established that the technology is cheap. I've worked in both marketing, and distribution, so don't waste my time explaining the cost involved there, because I know first hand the profit, and the mark up is ridiculous. Programs like N-track show that it doesn't have to cost the consumers a huge mark up to recover a bazillion dollars put into RnD. Studies show no measurable impact on sales due to piracy. So where is the justification? The only way it's not stealing is that as a consumer, you have a choice in the matter. However, when there is so much misinformation, and sensationalized propaganda (thanks Lars, couldn't be that your albums aren't selling because they suck?) that wrongly influences the consumers beliefs, then call it what you want, but there is wrong doing.
You can't possibly be saying that it's wrong for the consumer to rip off the company, but it's ok for the company to rip off the consumer? I agree that it's the consumers responsibility to be educated on the goods, and matters discussed here, but there is something to be said about taking advantage of misguided innocent people for inflated profit.


Ever note how the Industry let the "stars" fight the good fight, while doing little themselves? Puppet masters. Stir the shit, add the hype, and keep their hands clean when the fallout starts.

and, umm "umm..no", is not a very strong argument.

The best argument is just to not use stuff you can't afford. Yes, we all have our own guages of what is affordable to us, and some software costs way too much, so just don't use it. There are way more affordable options.

There's no problem that I can see with people objecting to a price tag and not using something as a result. Using that to justify stealing it however just doesn't work. And personal political stance doesn't justify it either.

 

[TerraMortim]

I am an internet tough guy! Better watch out or I'll tell you how much I hate you on the internet! Come on people, grow up. It's only a stupid ass forum about home recording, not a place where entire civilizations are made or destroyed.

 

[danny.guitar]

If it's a stupid ass forum then why are you here?

 

[TerraMortim]

The best argument is just to not use stuff you can't afford. Yes, we all have our own guages of what is affordable to us, and some software costs way too much, so just don't use it. There are way more affordable options.

There's no problem that I can see with people objecting to a price tag and not using something as a result. Using that to justify stealing it however just doesn't work. And personal political stance doesn't justify it either.

so here's a question for you. If it's too expensive, and you don't buy it as a result. does it matter in the long run if you pirate it instead? Does the developer see a financial difference between the two? nope. So, what difference does it make. Software is neither immoral or moral. If I went to their house and shot their children and stole all of their valuables, that would be another story, but jesus, if I'm not going to buy the shit anyway due to the insane price tag, they aren't out any money regardless if I pirate itor not. Simply, I just get the use of the software, and in the case of some software, such as high end orchestral/choral sample libraries, there are NO cheap equivilants that sound halfway worth a shit. I can either not give them money and not get use out of it, or I can not give them money and actually get some use. It's not stealing. Modern copyright law is a pile of rubbish anyway. It wasn't always this way...

 

[danny.guitar]

so here's a question for you. If it's too expensive, and you don't buy it as a result. does it matter in the long run if you pirate it instead? Does the developer see a financial difference between the two? nope. So, what difference does it make. Software is neither immoral or moral. If I went to their house and shot their children and stole all of their valuables, that would be another story, but jesus, if I'm not going to buy the shit anyway due to the insane price tag, they aren't out any money regardless if I pirate itor not. Simply, I just get the use of the software, and in the case of some software, such as high end orchestral/choral sample libraries, there are NO cheap equivilants that sound halfway worth a shit. I can either not give them money and not get use out of it, or I can not give them money and actually get some use. It's not stealing. Modern copyright law is a pile of rubbish anyway. It wasn't always this way...

This has been said a million times already.

No, technically they aren't losing any money.

Yes, you are still stealing because you are not paying for something that costs money.

 

[legionserial]

so here's a question for you. If it's too expensive, and you don't buy it as a result. does it matter in the long run if you pirate it instead?

The question is how badly you need something. And I mean need, not want.

If you really need that piece of software then buy it. If you don't, and something else cheaper would suffice, then get the cheaper option.

But then the word need when put in conjunction with software, would indicate a professional interest. In which case if you are making money out of something, then you sure as hell should be paying for the tools you use to make said money.

The problem is that people insist they must have the most expensive top of the line piece of kit, but don't want to pay for it, and perhaps don't want to 'indignify' themselves by getting the perfectly adequate cheaper option. So they pirate the expensive thing.

The 'I'm not going to buy it so I might aswell pirate it' argument is one of the weakest yet. I don't have a Porsche, and I sure as hell ain't going to buy one, because I don't have the money. Does that mean I should go steal one if I want to? It always sounds so much more ridiculous when it's attributed to something more tangible than 0's and 1's doesn't it?

Seen how much Cubase 4 costs? A lot more than Cubase SX3 did. Dyou not see how if less people had pirated SX3, Stienberg may not have had to jack the retail price up so much to reach their financial targets? I'm sure that's not the sole factor in the increased price, but I'm also pretty sure it's contributory.

 

[legionserial]

I am an internet tough guy! Better watch out or I'll tell you how much I hate you on the internet! Come on people, grow up. It's only a stupid ass forum about home recording, not a place where entire civilizations are made or destroyed.

It's a place we come to air our opinions and exchange knowledge, and our opinions of other peoples opinions. Sometimes it gets heated, but I for one don't lose any sleep over any of this. But if my opinion is that someone is being a prick, then I'll tell them. I don't say anything on this board that I wouldn't say to someone's face.

 

[NYMorningstar]

so here's a question for you. If it's too expensive, and you don't buy it as a result. does it matter in the long run if you pirate it instead?

It does matter. You seem to be more interested in how things effect others more than how they effect you. That's a prime indication of co-dependancy and drug involvement of the people in your life that you care about and/or drugging yourself. Before you deny this please include alcohol in my definition of drugs seeing it's the worst available.
If you steal that is a sin, a violation to God and yourself. You don't think that is important? If not ,then all I can say is you don't care to much about you.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Name one major industry or institution in the united states that isn't rife with corrpution and unfair discriminatory practices (against anyone not part of the status quo).

The farming industry. Don't forget too that the United States feeds about 70 percent of the world.

This country is one big joke, the deaths of those college kids doesn't even matter to me, it's funny, this country is a big joke that I laugh at with feeling....media coverage would never be like this for creative individuals outside of the status quo.

KILL THEM ALL

Sounds like you need Jesus more than ever. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

 

[Toker41]

The question is how badly you need something. And I mean need, not want.

If you really need that piece of software then buy it. If you don't, and something else cheaper would suffice, then get the cheaper option.

But then the word need when put in conjunction with software, would indicate a professional interest. In which case if you are making money out of something, then you sure as hell should be paying for the tools you use to make said money.

The problem is that people insist they must have the most expensive top of the line piece of kit, but don't want to pay for it, and perhaps don't want to 'indignify' themselves by getting the perfectly adequate cheaper option. So they pirate the expensive thing.

The 'I'm not going to buy it so I might aswell pirate it' argument is one of the weakest yet. I don't have a Porsche, and I sure as hell ain't going to buy one, because I don't have the money. Does that mean I should go steal one if I want to? It always sounds so much more ridiculous when it's attributed to something more tangible than 0's and 1's doesn't it?

Seen how much Cubase 4 costs? A lot more than Cubase SX3 did. Dyou not see how if less people had pirated SX3, Stienberg may not have had to jack the retail price up so much to reach their financial targets? I'm sure that's not the sole factor in the increased price, but I'm also pretty sure it's contributory.

If you steal the Porsche', did it hurt the profit of the manufacture? Shouldn't they boost the price of the cars now, to make up for the money they lose when you steal a car? That is the debate. The moral end is a useless topic. Nobody here cares about the judgment of the Bible thumpers. The question is, are the companies using "pirating" as an excuse to inflate the prices, thus ripping off the "honest" consumer?

I have posted it a thousand times, yet I still find myself having to repeat it...

STUDIES SHOW THAT PIRACY HAS NO MEASURABLE IMPACT ON SALES!. The price jack has NOTHING to do with how piracy is keeping them from reaching financial targets! You can not factor in to the price how much money you MIGHT have made. The loss CAN NOT be measured, so there is no proof that this loss has taken place, thus CAN NOT be a factor.

 

[legionserial]

But if people bought the software instead of pirating it, that would affect sales positively yes?

 

[wheelema]

If you steal the Porsche', did it hurt the profit of the manufacture? Shouldn't they boost the price of the cars now, to make up for the money they lose when you steal a car? That is the debate.

Uh... no. That is YOUR interpretation. If a car is stolen off of a lot the market place does not allow a seller to raise prices willy nilly to compensate since the customer will simply go across the street and buy from a competitor who hasn't raised his price.

Furthermore, anybody who attempts to address issues in this debate by comparing physical goods to computer code has serious problems with logic.

The moral end is a useless topic. Nobody here cares about the judgment of the Bible thumpers.

Really? It must be great to be in tune with the Universe. Care to share Wednesday's winning lottery numbers?

The question is, are the companies using "pirating" as an excuse to inflate the prices, thus ripping off the "honest" consumer?

What we have here is a failure to communicate! (... now duck because the Man With No Eyes is squeezing the trigger).

Software pricing is not set in response to well heeled customers exercising five fingered discounts, it is set by whatever the market will bear. In a prior life I managed a Softwaire Centre (the funky spelling was an attempt to copyright the name... it failed) back when the IBM PC-XT sported 64K RAM, a 10MB HDD, and cost THOUSANDS of dollars. Lotus 1-2-3 had just come out, VisiCalc still ruled. As Lotus 1-2-3 begain to eat VisiCalc's lunch the price of Lotus went up while the price of VisiCalc went down. Why? Because people were willing to pay MORE for the vastly superior functionality of Lotus and less for the inferior functionality of VisiCalc.

I have posted it a thousand times, yet I still find myself having to repeat it...

STUDIES SHOW THAT PIRACY HAS NO MEASURABLE IMPACT ON SALES!. The price jack has NOTHING to do with how piracy is keeping them from reaching financial targets! You can not factor in to the price how much money you MIGHT have made. The loss CAN NOT be measured, so there is no proof that this loss has taken place, thus CAN NOT be a factor.

You are quite correct that the loss cannot be measured (regardless of what publishers claim) but it does not follow that there is no proof that a loss has taken place. Certainly there is proof. For example, companies have been caught using pirated software wholesale. That piracy is partly responsible for many of the software licensing models used by companies today.

Part of the problem that this thread wrestles with is the difference between large publishers and small publishers. Microsoft... being the greedy monolithic carnivore that it is... may lust after the money that it's statisticians claim that it is losing to piracy, but that loss isn't going to cause it to go out of business. On the other hand a small company that depends on a single product cannot survive if it's customers are overwhelmingly thieves who simply pirate and benefit. Many small companies underprice their software and plantively ask that you support them so that they can provide improvements and support. And many more of those small companies have learned that doing business is such a fashion leads to bankruptcy.

In my personal life I would very much like to have a copy of a program called Chief Architect. But it costs over two thousand smackers, and since I am not an architect or draftsman who would use the product to generate income I cannot (at this time) justify it. Were I able to pirate it, I might, but since the copy protection is relatively solid and I am relatively lazy it is safe from my predations. That copy protection is not in place to keep me from pirating the program, it is in place to keep architects and draftsmen from pirating the program. The price is set as high as it is because that is what the market is willing to pay for it, because people know that they can make money... a LOT of money... with it. It's a tool that works very well. Broderbund sold a dumbed down version of the professional software called 3D Home Architect for under $40 bucks. THAT is what I could afford, and that is what I bought.

I am not proud that I have pirated software in my day. As a programmer I created a suite of software for distributed AS/400 administration that I elected to not put on the market.

Why?

Not for fear of people like me, but for fear that companies... who could afford to pay $500,000 for a AS/400 server... would decide that they could not afford to pay me, copy the code, and all my investment in time and money would be for naught. The software was beyond my resources to protect.

I don't expect people to be honest. I just wish they would stop trying to justify their dishonesty.

 

[Toker41]

I never tried to justify my dishonesty. My statements only claim that there is dishonesty on the part of the large companies (both in music, and software), when they claim that some of the high cost of their product is because of piracy. Surely you are not saying that it is not a claim that is made? If EVERY car dealer were claiming that theft was forcing them to raise thier rates, and every dealer used it as an excuse, then it wouldn't matter if the consumer went across the street, as he is getting robbed no matter where he goes.
Any company will try to get the most profit possible from a product. If there is a limit to the amount people are willing to pay, there is always a little more they will pay if it's because of "no good, godless pirates causing the company to lose money". The industry comes off as a victim, and makes the honest consumer feel like a victim, which they are....just not they way they are lead to believe.

Also, my arguments don't include companies that use pirated software for profit. When I say that sales aren't affected by piracy, I'm talking about average consumer sales.

 

[Toker41]

But if people bought the software instead of pirating it, that would affect sales positively yes?

You're missing the point that most people that use pirated software would not have bought the program anyway, even if they couldn't pirate it. Thus, it doesn't effect sales either way.

 

[NYMorningstar]

But if people bought the software instead of pirating it, that would affect sales positively yes?

That's totally right. And to say the thief would do without if they couldn't steal software is absurd. A real thief would just steal something else, sell it and buy the software they wanted if they wanted it bad enough. It is not up to a thief to take possession of something that doesn't belong to him/her just because there would be no loss to the person stolen from. It is up to the owner of the property, even if the property has no market value.