halfred
New member
I noticed that some microphone preamps state that they are specifically for ribbons---?
ranjam
New member
I wouldn't say special, but not what 99% of the preamps seem to be, either. Anything will work, but if you want oodles of gain, low noise, and headroom from your ribbon to your recording medium, then yeah, you need a special preamp. It's all about impedance.
Jim Lad
New member
I'd say not. I did buy an 8 channel Nady preamp to go with my Nady ribbons and an 8 channel Behringer preamp to match my Behringer mics but from what I read and from my own experiments, it's the combination of various mics and preamps that can give a variety of colours to your sound.
The Behries sound completely different on my Korg than they do on the Fast Track Pro or Echo Mona. More full, I'd have to say.
The Nady RSM8A sounds Great with the Nady preamp. I just tried it out today and am delighted with it but a different preamp will change the colour and that may be more to your taste.
The Golden Age R1 has a matching preamp http://www.recording-microphones.co.uk/Budget-ribbon-microphone.shtml if you're interested but I'd be looking at using the preamp with other mics too.
The Behries sound completely different on my Korg than they do on the Fast Track Pro or Echo Mona. More full, I'd have to say.
The Nady RSM8A sounds Great with the Nady preamp. I just tried it out today and am delighted with it but a different preamp will change the colour and that may be more to your taste.
The Golden Age R1 has a matching preamp http://www.recording-microphones.co.uk/Budget-ribbon-microphone.shtml if you're interested but I'd be looking at using the preamp with other mics too.
darrin_h2000
Banned
Why do that...you had better preamps in the Korg...look into the Line6 UX8...its the best 8 for your needs.
You want 70db of gain to do ribbons clean without buzz...like a grace
Jim Lad
New member
Are you referring to using the Nady preamp?
If so then the answer would be "To hear how it sounds". I just got the stuff although I do need it (the preamp) for my passive ribbons.The korg alone won't run these.
I agree. Maybe even as much as 80 dBs for a little more headroom.
The problem is that even an 80dB preamp in my price range (which really limits your options) you're probably getting about 55dB of clean gain.
I expect to use about 30dB from either the Nady or Behringer and a further 30dB on the Korg. This brings me up alright but the noise does come up with it.
If I switch over to the Mona, it's less of a problem.
I have been told that using 2 preamps in smaller increments can be useful in these circumstances.
I pressume Grace is a high end ribbon or preamp.
darrin_h2000
Banned
I understand Rane makes a clean pre that isnt so expensive with plenty of gain....the Line6 I suggested is a modeler that will give you sounds you might have to pay several thousands to get.
Jim Lad
New member
Thanks Darrin:
I think I'm finished buying though. There are a couple of Stellar ribbons that I'll pick up down the road but other than that, I'm pretty well set. The combination of the Nady preamp, RSM8A & Korg is excellent for loud, lively vocals
Bright, Crisp) and the Korg along with the Golden age is great for the softer, warmer vocals. Time to quit spending and start recording.
Which brings me back to Halfred.
You know, Nady makes 2 excellent, low end ribbon microphones the RSM 4 and the RSM 5. They are $80 a piece.
These are lollipop mics which come with a clip that would fit most pencil mics.
The RSM 4 has a 2" X 2.5 micron ribbon. That's thick and is a very dark microphone for that reason. I passed mine along to a bass player friend.
The RSM 5 has a 2" X 2 micron ribbon. Is fairly flat and an incredible deal at that price.
The Nady PRA-8 Mic Preamp costs $129 and is surprisingly good.
So for less than $400 (plus package & handling) you can record your piano.
Never mind being 6' away from it.
Mount the RSM 4 a couple of feet above the bass end and the RSM5 at the other end. Work in 1/3rds I'd say. RSM 4 1/3rd from L and RSM 5 1/3rd from R.
The back ends of the mics will be angled towards the ceiling.
No reason at all why that shouldn't work.
I think I'm finished buying though. There are a couple of Stellar ribbons that I'll pick up down the road but other than that, I'm pretty well set. The combination of the Nady preamp, RSM8A & Korg is excellent for loud, lively vocals
Bright, Crisp) and the Korg along with the Golden age is great for the softer, warmer vocals. Time to quit spending and start recording.
Which brings me back to Halfred.
You know, Nady makes 2 excellent, low end ribbon microphones the RSM 4 and the RSM 5. They are $80 a piece.
These are lollipop mics which come with a clip that would fit most pencil mics.
The RSM 4 has a 2" X 2.5 micron ribbon. That's thick and is a very dark microphone for that reason. I passed mine along to a bass player friend.
The RSM 5 has a 2" X 2 micron ribbon. Is fairly flat and an incredible deal at that price.
The Nady PRA-8 Mic Preamp costs $129 and is surprisingly good.
So for less than $400 (plus package & handling) you can record your piano.
Never mind being 6' away from it.
Mount the RSM 4 a couple of feet above the bass end and the RSM5 at the other end. Work in 1/3rds I'd say. RSM 4 1/3rd from L and RSM 5 1/3rd from R.
The back ends of the mics will be angled towards the ceiling.
No reason at all why that shouldn't work.
halfred
New member
Thanks Jim for the great suggestions. I'm on hold untill M-audio sends back my microtrack, repaired.
halfred
New member
Thanks, so it sounds like a high end preamp would work as well with a ribbon as one that is designated "ribbon mic preamp"---
ranjam
New member
Gain is cheap. Lots of gain is just as cheap. With a careful design, lots of gain can have low noise. When I said the secret is impedance, I meant it. We're not talking about a 600-ohm microphone. A ribbon mic is a much higher impedance, and when you plug into a 600-ohm input, you get impedance loading. Now the mic won't seem to have as much output, so you crank up the gain on the pre hoping to hear your ribbon. Now the noise comes in.
I suppose if you had a dead quiet 600-ohm input 'high end' pre you wouldn't mind, but overall, I don't like it. And at great risk of having my sanity or manhood questioned, that why I have an ART pre with a variable input impedance. Now I get a real 70dB gain from my ribbon, but it also works with any dynamic mic I have just by selecting the 'right' input impedance. And I don't mind ART at all. With the $$$ I saved I can try other ribbons, so it's an overall win-win for me.
*WARNING!* May not be legal in all States. Consult with a physician if symptons persist. Side effects may include extra money burning a hole in your pocket
.
Shadow_7
New member
You can use a general purpose preamp on ribbons. But the ones specifically for ribbons tend to lack phantom power (no risk of damaging passive ribbons). And they tend to have high impedence. The TRP is something like 18k impedence. Where you more common variety is closer to 3k impedence. And of course you need a lot of clean gain.
Jim Lad
New member
dgatwood
is out. Leave a message.
There's so much misinformation in this thread that it's hard to know where to begin.... 
Most of the modern (Chinese) ribbons are on the order of 200 ohms of output impedance, not high impedance like the older ribbons. The recommended input impedance is about 1k, which is actually slightly lower than an average mic preamp (1.5k is typical these days). Not that a higher input impedance is much of a problem.
In fact, the high impedance thing isn't always true even with vintage ribbons. Many of them had transformers that could be low or high impedance just by moving one wire to a different lead on the transformer (from the center tap to the end).
The output level of most modern ribbons is almost exactly the same level as an SM58 (within a single dB). You do NOT need 70 dB of clean gain for these things unless you are recording a pin drop or something. The mic pres I use for ribbons only provide 60 dB, and even with reasonably quiet sources, I'm never anywhere near the top of their range.
Any typical mixer can provide enough gain. You do, however, need a lot more gain than with a condenser, so you want it to be very clean, just as you would with any dynamic mic.
I assume by "2.5 micron", you mean "6 micron". And yes, that's pretty thick by ribbon mic standards. I wouldn't call 2.5 micron thick by any standard. A human hair averages 100 microns, to put that in perspective.
Oh, and it's only about 1.77 inches long (45mm). Ditto for the RSM-5. That's actually pretty important; it's what distinguishes the short ribbon mics (RSM-4, RSM-5, etc.) from the long ribbon mics (RSM-2, etc.). The latter has an actual 2" ribbon (50mm, so really 1.97", but we'll call that close enough).
Phantom power won't hurt modern ribbons unless you have a shorted cable. For older ribbons with a grounded center tap, if one signal wire gets disconnected accidentally, phantom will fry it. Similarly, if someone miswires a vintage ribbon mic to an XLR jack with the ground on one side of the secondary (it can happen, don't laugh), it's as good as dead. Be careful if you're working with vintage ribbons.
Most of the modern (Chinese) ribbons are on the order of 200 ohms of output impedance, not high impedance like the older ribbons. The recommended input impedance is about 1k, which is actually slightly lower than an average mic preamp (1.5k is typical these days). Not that a higher input impedance is much of a problem.
In fact, the high impedance thing isn't always true even with vintage ribbons. Many of them had transformers that could be low or high impedance just by moving one wire to a different lead on the transformer (from the center tap to the end).
The output level of most modern ribbons is almost exactly the same level as an SM58 (within a single dB). You do NOT need 70 dB of clean gain for these things unless you are recording a pin drop or something. The mic pres I use for ribbons only provide 60 dB, and even with reasonably quiet sources, I'm never anywhere near the top of their range.
Any typical mixer can provide enough gain. You do, however, need a lot more gain than with a condenser, so you want it to be very clean, just as you would with any dynamic mic.
I assume by "2.5 micron", you mean "6 micron". And yes, that's pretty thick by ribbon mic standards. I wouldn't call 2.5 micron thick by any standard. A human hair averages 100 microns, to put that in perspective.
Oh, and it's only about 1.77 inches long (45mm). Ditto for the RSM-5. That's actually pretty important; it's what distinguishes the short ribbon mics (RSM-4, RSM-5, etc.) from the long ribbon mics (RSM-2, etc.). The latter has an actual 2" ribbon (50mm, so really 1.97", but we'll call that close enough).
Phantom power won't hurt modern ribbons unless you have a shorted cable. For older ribbons with a grounded center tap, if one signal wire gets disconnected accidentally, phantom will fry it. Similarly, if someone miswires a vintage ribbon mic to an XLR jack with the ground on one side of the secondary (it can happen, don't laugh), it's as good as dead. Be careful if you're working with vintage ribbons.
halfred
New member
Thanks for the info
Jim Lad
New member
I was working off the top of my head last night and stand corrected.
The RSM4 is 6 microns and the RSM5 is 2 (just as I stated).
When it comes down to actually using these microphones (RSM 5 & 2, I gave the 4 away) all of the time, I need 70dB's of gain, just like Darrin says.
60 dB preamps are just a tad too weak for what I want.
Most preamps are good for about 2/3rds of their rotation and then they start getting noisy. Use 30 to 40% of two preamps and you're getting the clean gain that you need.
I do want to hear a pin drop. I also want whomever is dropping them to stop so that I can get back to recording.
I have a 58 by the way but would never take it into the studio so I'll take your word on it with regards to output.
Phantom power won't hurt any modern ribbon microphone.
I've heard it blamed for hurting SM 58s too. Not so.
The RSM4 is 6 microns and the RSM5 is 2 (just as I stated).
When it comes down to actually using these microphones (RSM 5 & 2, I gave the 4 away) all of the time, I need 70dB's of gain, just like Darrin says.
60 dB preamps are just a tad too weak for what I want.
Most preamps are good for about 2/3rds of their rotation and then they start getting noisy. Use 30 to 40% of two preamps and you're getting the clean gain that you need.
I do want to hear a pin drop. I also want whomever is dropping them to stop so that I can get back to recording.
I have a 58 by the way but would never take it into the studio so I'll take your word on it with regards to output.
A shorted cable will hurt any microphone.
Phantom power won't hurt any modern ribbon microphone.
I've heard it blamed for hurting SM 58s too. Not so.
darrin_h2000
Banned
The output level of most modern ribbons is almost exactly the same level as an SM58 (within a single dB). You do NOT need 70 dB of clean gain for these things unless you are recording a pin drop or something. The mic pres I use for ribbons only provide 60 dB, and even with reasonably quiet sources, I'm never anywhere near the top of their range.
At arround 78% the self noise of a pre starts get more noticable and effect the sound...so if you want 50db of clean gain you get something with 70 db...unless you want that noise on your track you would either go with a pre that is speced with more gain...or one that is quieter...the grace should give you both...I hear the rane is pretty good with this...unless you want color.
Jim Lad
New member
Just popped back up from what I call "The Studio" and was cleaning up a couple of tracks I recorded yesterday.
Just a simple, lively guitar and vocals version of "The wild Rover" for now but I'm actually delighted by the sound. At the end of the day, isn't that what really matters?
I could read up on specs and follow rules about which preamp matches which ribbon 'til the cows come home but this is art and I want the brushes and paint that work for me.
I do find though that the noise floor on the RSM8A is high. I can clean it up but tell me, if the noise is coming from within the mic. wouldn't even the best preamp have difficulty bringing up the volume without also bringing up the unwanted sound?
Curious.
Just a simple, lively guitar and vocals version of "The wild Rover" for now but I'm actually delighted by the sound. At the end of the day, isn't that what really matters?
I could read up on specs and follow rules about which preamp matches which ribbon 'til the cows come home but this is art and I want the brushes and paint that work for me.
I do find though that the noise floor on the RSM8A is high. I can clean it up but tell me, if the noise is coming from within the mic. wouldn't even the best preamp have difficulty bringing up the volume without also bringing up the unwanted sound?
Curious.
dgatwood
is out. Leave a message.
The RSM-8A is an active an active ribbon, so yes, there's nothing you can do about its noise level. It's the fault of the circuitry in the mic.
Jim Lad
New member
Thank You.
That was helpful.
darrin_h2000
Banned
I think it is a mic that can be modded...Im not the type to consider a ribbon unless its something Im confident someone on the radio is using...and I dont own a mic that isnt...I might consider something like a BeyerDynamic260 as my first...its not that expensive and the noisefloor must be better than a Nady which is about half the price new.
