Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
See, this is why I love the guitar forum. You learn something every time you come in here!
Rick, you are the man!!!!
Rick, you are the man!!!!
capnkid
Optimus Prime
is that going to help me close my eyes and randomly pick a fret and string, and I will know the note, or do you have to count from nut to figure it out?
punkin
Univalve & Avatar Speaks
S. Vai is a big fan of singing the notes and/or harmonies while playing. I can do the notes intended for playing but doing the harmonies drives me insane!
L
Larry Gude
New member
Good! GOOD!
I applaud you and thank you because I'll get something out of your posts as well.
There is a reason you know so much more than guys like me; you DO want it that bad. I, we mostly, don't. I will NOT practice every single day. I may not even touch a guitar for days at a time.
It sounds like too many people have come to you seeking help, didn't do what you showed them and then complained they couldn't play better THEN expected you to jam with them anyway.
For them I say, what are you gonna do? C'est la vie.
For me and others I say THANK YOU for every little thing you pass on. Maybe you don't hear it enough but even little shit, help with one chord in a song, maintenence, anything, it all helps and it all makes its way into SOMEBODY's playing or knowledge they then pass on.
Us hacks are your (guys who really know their stuff) biggest fans.
You could appreciate that a little more.
(PS; chromatic scale was the first thing one teacher had me do. Another guy before him just said 'play and then play it and then again...you'll see why later...it, again, was the first thing HE ahd me do!)
Thanks bro!
I applaud you and thank you because I'll get something out of your posts as well.
There is a reason you know so much more than guys like me; you DO want it that bad. I, we mostly, don't. I will NOT practice every single day. I may not even touch a guitar for days at a time.
It sounds like too many people have come to you seeking help, didn't do what you showed them and then complained they couldn't play better THEN expected you to jam with them anyway.
For them I say, what are you gonna do? C'est la vie.
For me and others I say THANK YOU for every little thing you pass on. Maybe you don't hear it enough but even little shit, help with one chord in a song, maintenence, anything, it all helps and it all makes its way into SOMEBODY's playing or knowledge they then pass on.
Us hacks are your (guys who really know their stuff) biggest fans.
You could appreciate that a little more.
(PS; chromatic scale was the first thing one teacher had me do. Another guy before him just said 'play and then play it and then again...you'll see why later...it, again, was the first thing HE ahd me do!)
Thanks bro!
L
Larry Gude
New member
Scratch that...
...I got confused. What you are showing was STEP in my one and only year in piano and the first thing I was shown 10 year later when I finally picked up a guitar.
The guys I mentioned had me go over and over pentatonic scales. (That's the 'rock' scale, yes?)
(see? I actually looked at your work!)
...I got confused. What you are showing was STEP in my one and only year in piano and the first thing I was shown 10 year later when I finally picked up a guitar.
The guys I mentioned had me go over and over pentatonic scales. (That's the 'rock' scale, yes?)
(see? I actually looked at your work!)
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Hello guys. Ok, let me say something here. First off an apology for the "holier than thou" attitude. Grumpy old farts on batteries get that way. But the truth is, I have something I want to pass on to you guys who can't seem to find the key to seeing your fretboard as a whole. Thats not to say I think I know it all, cause my friends, NO ONE does. And I won't even say that every word is gospel either. I, even though I hate to admit it 
, make mistakes once in a blue moon...hahahahahaha. What a moron. Well, enough of that.
Ok, heres the deal.
Cool. Thats enough for me. If someone has enough gumption to actually look at it, that gives me a little hope that what I have to say might really do someone some good. On that note, I will continue. Here is a little analogy.
Think of music as a journey through a maze. When you first started out on this jouney, something had inspired you to take this journey in the first place.
That was the destination. You think. Trouble is, you could hear the destination, but didn't have a clue on how to get there, nor did you have a vehicle to take you on this journey. All musicians must have a vehicle. That is their instrument. It will take you down all the paths of this journey. Trouble is, which path to take. Some are dead ends, some lead to other destinations, some meander endlessly, and some lead to doors, but the doors are locked.
So you get a vehicle, and you have a destination in mind, and there are many paths leading into the maze, but you have NO map of the maze. And you don't have a clue where to get the map. Oh, there are a million map sellers out there. They all have a "magic" pathway to the destination too.
Some even have "detours" around the doors. But if there are detours, why go through the door? What is behind the door that makes it important? I'll tell you what. Another door. And another. And another. And where do these doors lead? To the direct pathways to other destinations. But without a REAL map, you can't even see these doors till you get through the first one.
But like I said. These doors are locked. So where do you get a key to first door, let alone each of the others? That my friend is the riddle. And the solution to that riddle is right above this reply. That, is the Master Key Machine!!!
Do you know how a lock works? Actually, it is very simple. Look at a common house door key. You see all the little indentations on the edge. That jagged edge, is a mechanical combination. Each of those little "bumps" is a specific distance from the opposite edge of the key. When you insert the key into the lock, those little "bumbs" lift little springloaded rods. These are called "tumblers". And EACH of these tumblers are made up of two or three short rods, that ride in a cylinder, like a piston. However, each of these tumblers , are made up of two or more short rods that have a specific length. It is this length of the short rods, and the "bumps" on the key, that allow a lock to open. As the "bump" lifts each tumbler to a specific height, it aligns the break between the two rods to the outer edge of the KEY CYLINDER. When all the tumblers have been aligned, you can turn the key, which in turn, moves a deadbolt, or allows the handle to move the latch.
However, IF there are only two rods per cylinder, then only a key that is made for it will open it. Each lock has been set up with different combinations of rod LENGTHS. With 6 tumblers, there are MILLIONS of combinations. However, IF there are THREE rods per tumbler, it is a special lock that has ONE combination for one set of two rods, and Millions of combinations for the
other set of two rods. That allows any number of locks built this way to be opened by a MASTER KEY. And my friends, the doors to the musical maze have a lock with Master tumblers. The problem is the Key. Where do you get the Master key. Read on.
Think of a hotel that has 500 rooms. Each room has its own lock and key. But the maid has to get into every room. She isn't going to carry 500 keys. She only has ONE. A Master key. It opens every door in the hotel. In this case, the hotel is the maze. And the maze is called the 12 tone system. There are many doors to this system. Think of music as a journey through maze. There are many paths to this journey. And each path has door at the beginning of it, and many doors along its meanderings. When you carry a Master Key, you can open each and every door. You don't need a key to each one.
So where do you get this master key? Its very simple. You make it. And how do you make it. That too is simple, but you need a LOCK diagram. Think of it this way. Your fretboard is the LOCK. The strings are the TUMBLERS. Without a diagram of the tumbler combination, you have no way of making the Master Key. The Chromatic Scale is the rod lengths. The tumblers are the strings. When you apply the Chromatic Scale to the strings in the right combination, VOILA...a KEY!!! And how do you get this combination? My friends, I just gave it to you!! Now you have to make your Master Key. And how do you make it? MEMORY!!!! Simple as that. Your memory of the Chromatic Scale on each string is the MASTER KEY!!!
Guys, I guaruuuuntee, this is NOT an exercise in futility. There IS a goal. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. And what you find at the end of that tunnel, is a Master Key to the 12 tone system door. Behind that door is a maze of other doors. But which door to chose to find the right path. You won't know untill you build your Master Key. And here is the reward. Once you make your Master Key, you can open the door that hides the MAP!!
But for the moment, let me apologize again, for my little diatribe on Hangdawgs thread. I will start a new thread that will I will attempt to RE ENTER the maze. However, let me say, for those of you who have already found the map, forgive me. I do not profess to hold all the answers. There are many doors I have NOT opened, and many that will remain unopened for me. I only hope to illuminate the path to a few doors for the unenlightend people to open themself. Till then, tune in next time. Same time, same station for the next episode of The Journey.
fitZ
But the truth is, I have something I want to pass on to you guys who can't seem to find the key to seeing your fretboard as a whole. Thats not to say I think I know it all, cause my friends, NO ONE does. And I won't even say that every word is gospel either. I, even though I hate to admit it , make mistakes once in a blue moon...hahahahahaha. What a moron. Well, enough of that. Ok, heres the deal.
Cool. Thats enough for me. If someone has enough gumption to actually look at it, that gives me a little hope that what I have to say might really do someone some good. On that note, I will continue. Here is a little analogy.Think of music as a journey through a maze. When you first started out on this jouney, something had inspired you to take this journey in the first place.
That was the destination. You think. Trouble is, you could hear the destination, but didn't have a clue on how to get there, nor did you have a vehicle to take you on this journey. All musicians must have a vehicle. That is their instrument. It will take you down all the paths of this journey. Trouble is, which path to take. Some are dead ends, some lead to other destinations, some meander endlessly, and some lead to doors, but the doors are locked.
So you get a vehicle, and you have a destination in mind, and there are many paths leading into the maze, but you have NO map of the maze. And you don't have a clue where to get the map. Oh, there are a million map sellers out there. They all have a "magic" pathway to the destination too.
Some even have "detours" around the doors. But if there are detours, why go through the door? What is behind the door that makes it important? I'll tell you what. Another door. And another. And another. And where do these doors lead? To the direct pathways to other destinations. But without a REAL map, you can't even see these doors till you get through the first one. But like I said. These doors are locked. So where do you get a key to first door, let alone each of the others? That my friend is the riddle. And the solution to that riddle is right above this reply. That, is the Master Key Machine!!!
Do you know how a lock works? Actually, it is very simple. Look at a common house door key. You see all the little indentations on the edge. That jagged edge, is a mechanical combination. Each of those little "bumps" is a specific distance from the opposite edge of the key. When you insert the key into the lock, those little "bumbs" lift little springloaded rods. These are called "tumblers". And EACH of these tumblers are made up of two or three short rods, that ride in a cylinder, like a piston. However, each of these tumblers , are made up of two or more short rods that have a specific length. It is this length of the short rods, and the "bumps" on the key, that allow a lock to open. As the "bump" lifts each tumbler to a specific height, it aligns the break between the two rods to the outer edge of the KEY CYLINDER. When all the tumblers have been aligned, you can turn the key, which in turn, moves a deadbolt, or allows the handle to move the latch.
However, IF there are only two rods per cylinder, then only a key that is made for it will open it. Each lock has been set up with different combinations of rod LENGTHS. With 6 tumblers, there are MILLIONS of combinations. However, IF there are THREE rods per tumbler, it is a special lock that has ONE combination for one set of two rods, and Millions of combinations for the
other set of two rods. That allows any number of locks built this way to be opened by a MASTER KEY. And my friends, the doors to the musical maze have a lock with Master tumblers. The problem is the Key. Where do you get the Master key. Read on.
Think of a hotel that has 500 rooms. Each room has its own lock and key. But the maid has to get into every room. She isn't going to carry 500 keys. She only has ONE. A Master key. It opens every door in the hotel. In this case, the hotel is the maze. And the maze is called the 12 tone system. There are many doors to this system. Think of music as a journey through maze. There are many paths to this journey. And each path has door at the beginning of it, and many doors along its meanderings. When you carry a Master Key, you can open each and every door. You don't need a key to each one.
So where do you get this master key? Its very simple. You make it. And how do you make it. That too is simple, but you need a LOCK diagram. Think of it this way. Your fretboard is the LOCK. The strings are the TUMBLERS. Without a diagram of the tumbler combination, you have no way of making the Master Key. The Chromatic Scale is the rod lengths. The tumblers are the strings. When you apply the Chromatic Scale to the strings in the right combination, VOILA...a KEY!!! And how do you get this combination? My friends, I just gave it to you!!
Now you have to make your Master Key. And how do you make it? MEMORY!!!! Simple as that. Your memory of the Chromatic Scale on each string is the MASTER KEY!!! Guys, I guaruuuuntee, this is NOT an exercise in futility. There IS a goal. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. And what you find at the end of that tunnel, is a Master Key to the 12 tone system door. Behind that door is a maze of other doors. But which door to chose to find the right path. You won't know untill you build your Master Key. And here is the reward. Once you make your Master Key, you can open the door that hides the MAP!!
But for the moment, let me apologize again, for my little diatribe on Hangdawgs thread. I will start a new thread that will I will attempt to RE ENTER the maze. However, let me say, for those of you who have already found the map, forgive me. I do not profess to hold all the answers. There are many doors I have NOT opened, and many that will remain unopened for me. I only hope to illuminate the path to a few doors for the unenlightend people to open themself. Till then, tune in next time. Same time, same station for the next episode of The Journey.
fitZ
punkin
Univalve & Avatar Speaks
All Rise! Sir Rick has left the building.
Seriously...nicely said.
Seriously...nicely said.
S
Sanjanjoseph
New member
I am the tab master!
punkin
Univalve & Avatar Speaks
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
X
XLR
______
God preserve us from the evil tablature. I cast ye tab demons out (hands held in shape of cross).
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
S
Sanjanjoseph
New member
Timothy Lawler said:
hahahahahhahahaha...Tim, come to the tab side.....<heavy breathing>
X
XLR
______
NNNNNNOOOOOOOO...
Must... not... look into... the tabness...
Must... not... look into... the tabness...
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
When I was 11 and taking lessons out of the MelBay Vol1 book, it was simply too overwhelming to
count the beat with my foot.
read the line.
interpret the line
play the line IN TIME
Plus, at 11 I was listening to Tommy and the Beatles. WTF did I know about some fucking ballad from 1940 that was in MelBay's book???
Honest, I would go home after the lesson and not be able to remember a single melody I had been shown. I couldn't figure it out.
Last straw was the teacher putting a $20 on the music stand, saying he would give it to me if I could play a line.
I couldn't do it.
Instead of trying to get to the root of the problem this guy belittled me, saying I didn't want to learn blah blah blah. I wanted it enough to teach myself how to play "We're Not Gonna Take It" and to figure out barre chords by myself at 11.
I didn't go to another lesson until I got to HS.
Don't really have a lot of use for music teachers these days either, I might add.
Yeah, I wish I knew more theory. Maybe someday I'll make it over to the CC and take some piano and theory. I learned a helluva lot more from watching JG and others and from using my ears than from any teacher anywhere.
count the beat with my foot.
read the line.
interpret the line
play the line IN TIME
Plus, at 11 I was listening to Tommy and the Beatles. WTF did I know about some fucking ballad from 1940 that was in MelBay's book???
Honest, I would go home after the lesson and not be able to remember a single melody I had been shown. I couldn't figure it out.
Last straw was the teacher putting a $20 on the music stand, saying he would give it to me if I could play a line.
I couldn't do it.
Instead of trying to get to the root of the problem this guy belittled me, saying I didn't want to learn blah blah blah. I wanted it enough to teach myself how to play "We're Not Gonna Take It" and to figure out barre chords by myself at 11.
I didn't go to another lesson until I got to HS.
Don't really have a lot of use for music teachers these days either, I might add.
Yeah, I wish I knew more theory. Maybe someday I'll make it over to the CC and take some piano and theory. I learned a helluva lot more from watching JG and others and from using my ears than from any teacher anywhere.
X
XLR
______
The guy was an ass. Unfortunately there are too many teachers like that. There's a movement in music ed. research that's been trying for 20 yrs to get music teachers to realize they're doing everything wrong in using the approach that your first teacher did. You know, trying to get a student to decipher the dots on the page at the same time they're juggling a bunch of new musical skills. The particular research I was influenced by was by Edwin Gordon, but there are a number of similar approaches that have explored how we really learn music.
And the Mel Bay method? Mel Bay publishes a lot of good stuff but their method is like a time capsule to the WWII era.
The best approaches to teaching, IMHO, are those where with each small detail or skill, you develop it in the ear first, then use notation as an outgrowth of that. But with any approach, if the teacher's an a-hole, the lessons are going to do more harm than good.
One of the most interesting research studies I've seen is one about attitudes of non-music-major college students training to become elementary school teachers - specifically, what they thought about their own musical abilities. Most had had music lessons or classes of some kind in the past and the main thing they learned from those past lessons was that they couldn't do it. Crazy world, huh?
Tim
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timmerman
-------------------------
Thanks, older methods what they can do, chords and fretboardknowledge
Hello there,
some great stuff on this thread, thanks to all of you,
Yes those Carassi and Sor methods are great, same as the Mel Bay ones, and yes they are old and do not look cool, but there is a lot of useful stuff in the methods. Going through those books you can feel the time when they were written
Some of you also mentioned [I think it was you Tim] to concentrate on one little aspect at a time with students. Yep that is it, and you also need goals and revisit them from time to time and..................
Oh the fretboard thing is so big and deep, really..............and it does help if and individual does figure it out on his/her own because you will not forget it, and it is [or can be] a long journey, but you can have a lot of fun with it as you are going.
Sorry for me jumping from one subject to another......so fretboard knowledge is useful for reading, improving, composing and really...........for so much. I will work on this with all my students and do stress it from day one, and it does not matter whether they are 8 or 65, but what matters is that you approach them, of course, in a different way.
A useful way to get into the fretboard is from the open chords. Being able to see how they relate to upper registers of the fretboard is very useful, also playing scales out of the chordshapes is useful. Of course it is also useful to be able to play a scale just over one string.
When you play a scale over one string you can see the structure of the scale [how many steps each note moves up at a time] as opposed to playing in position where you do not see what is going on.
Okay all simple stuff eh? It is just about equiping yourself with some useful tools and these tools will be of use for the rest of your life.
Aggggggggggggggh should stop now as it all gets too deep
Cheers,
Eddie
Timothy Lawler said:
Hello there,
some great stuff on this thread, thanks to all of you,
Yes those Carassi and Sor methods are great, same as the Mel Bay ones, and yes they are old and do not look cool, but there is a lot of useful stuff in the methods. Going through those books you can feel the time when they were written
Some of you also mentioned [I think it was you Tim] to concentrate on one little aspect at a time with students. Yep that is it, and you also need goals and revisit them from time to time and..................
Oh the fretboard thing is so big and deep, really..............and it does help if and individual does figure it out on his/her own because you will not forget it, and it is [or can be] a long journey, but you can have a lot of fun with it as you are going.
Sorry for me jumping from one subject to another......so fretboard knowledge is useful for reading, improving, composing and really...........for so much. I will work on this with all my students and do stress it from day one, and it does not matter whether they are 8 or 65, but what matters is that you approach them, of course, in a different way.
A useful way to get into the fretboard is from the open chords. Being able to see how they relate to upper registers of the fretboard is very useful, also playing scales out of the chordshapes is useful. Of course it is also useful to be able to play a scale just over one string.
When you play a scale over one string you can see the structure of the scale [how many steps each note moves up at a time] as opposed to playing in position where you do not see what is going on.
Okay all simple stuff eh? It is just about equiping yourself with some useful tools and these tools will be of use for the rest of your life.
Aggggggggggggggh should stop now as it all gets too deep
Cheers,
Eddie
X
XLR
______
The thing I like about the method by Fernando Sor is that it's a book of his thoughts about learning the guitar and being a musician in the 1800's, rather than a bunch of musical exercises. The way I thought about his music changed after reading it.
Tim
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timmerman
-------------------------
Reading and Tutorbooks, Tommy Teldesco
True true, you get to feel how the man thought, what kind of musical ideas were in his head ect.
Do you know about Tommy Teldesco's book "Reading for Guitar-Players?" Well this one is really an "exercise book", but what I like about it is all the anecdotes about how it is to be a studio player, all the little stories about the scene and....................very different form Sor's book, but then it was written at a different time [late 70s I believe] and as for the exercises in Tom's book, well those can be found anywhere else, or if you have been with the guitar long enough you can just make the all up yourself, as this is much more fun, and saves you buying all those books.
Anyway I feel I may now get into the subject of tutor books, and reading on the guitar, but heh, this is related to fretboardknowledge eh? So not that bad anyway......
Eddie
True true, you get to feel how the man thought, what kind of musical ideas were in his head ect.
Do you know about Tommy Teldesco's book "Reading for Guitar-Players?" Well this one is really an "exercise book", but what I like about it is all the anecdotes about how it is to be a studio player, all the little stories about the scene and....................very different form Sor's book, but then it was written at a different time [late 70s I believe] and as for the exercises in Tom's book, well those can be found anywhere else, or if you have been with the guitar long enough you can just make the all up yourself, as this is much more fun, and saves you buying all those books.
Anyway I feel I may now get into the subject of tutor books, and reading on the guitar, but heh, this is related to fretboardknowledge eh? So not that bad anyway......
Eddie
V
Vintage28
New member
i actualy have the Mel Bay cord book and i also have a cord and excercize book by Tal Farlow. my grandfather gives me books all the time.. right now he has me playing violin exercizes its tuff and its fast but its great.