Do you know the note names on the fretboard?

[JMarcomb]

i see movable patterns... not note names

 

[Gear_Junky]

continuing to both agree and disagree with you, rick

for me i want to learn and know these notes.

i know a guy, a bass player, who can instantly PLAY on his bass any note he hears. He instantly knows where it is, he hears it. but he doesn't know their names. he doesn't know chords, but he knows exactly what to play over a chord he hears - he's really good. But, he can't communicate

For guys like me, trying to get where he is means learning where the notes are, learning moveable patterns, chord arpegios, etc.

For those of you who don't want or need to memorize the fretboard notes, thats your choice. Unfortunately though, I submit you will NEVER understand the relationship of these notes in building chords and their extensions, scales, or how inversions and intervals work within them, and how to visualize them on the fretboard. To each his own I suppose though. BTW, without knowing the notes. maybe you can figure out how to play a Dmin triad at the 1st fret using ONE finger. Or a DMaj triad at the second fret using one finger. Once you do, you might have a fighting chance at understanding Scale tone 7th chord inversions. And once you begin to "see" how THAT works, IN ALL 12 KEYS, you might be ready for the next door. Thats not to say you can't become a great guitarist without learning the notes of the fretboard. However, to ME, the point is to become a musician, and one who can communicate on a deeper scale.

Disclaimer: My opinions are based on playing for 20 years without LEARNING the fretboard NOTES. Once I did, my second 20 years made the first 20 a joke. I'm only trying to help the ones that WANT to learn.

 

[fitZ08]

Whats the 12th key I gotta learn that one.

1 C
2 C#/Db
3 D
4 D#/Eb
5 E
6 F
7 F#/Gb
8 G
9 G#/Ab
10 A
11 A#/Bb
12 B
Hmmmmm, doesn't that look suspiciously like the Chromatic scale?

Hmmmmm, if you knew the notes of each string from an open note to the twelth fret...you might see a parallel to the "12 keys"/chromatic scale.

 

[muttley600]

1 C
2 C#/Db
3 D
4 D#/Eb
5 E
6 F
7 F#/Gb
8 G
9 G#/Ab
10 A
11 A#/Bb
12 B
Hmmmmm, doesn't that look suspiciously like the Chromatic scale?

Hmmmmm, if you knew the notes of each string from an open note to the twelth fret...you might see a parallel to the "12 keys"/chromatic scale.

Being factious my dear ole fellow. There is ABSOLUTELY no need to learn every scale in every key. There is the need to learn how any given scale is constructed and then apply it to the key you are playing in over the chord progression being used. The issue here is intervals and how they relate. Learning stuff in every key is anal. Anal musicians = Anal music IMHO but YOMV..

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

There is ABSOLUTELY no need to learn every scale in every key.

Your opinion may be valid for those who don't need it. However, there are some who like to play in ALL twelve keys. Some SIMULTANEOUSLY. Not just a few. Anal is only a limited perspective.

BTW, I'm NOT YOUR dear fellow.

 

[acidrock]

The easiest way to learn the fretboard is to learn the root notes in every chord,After that figure out what the 3rd and 5th of a major chord are.Once you do that the rest falls in place.

 

[acidrock]

The easiest way to learn the fretboard is to learn the root notes in every chord,After that figure out what the 3rd and 5th of a major chord are.Once you do that the rest falls in place.

BTW,I know where all the notes are but I still suck on guitar.

 

[muttley600]

Your opinion may be valid for those who don't need it. However, there are some who like to play in ALL twelve keys. Some SIMULTANEOUSLY. Not just a few. Anal is only a limited perspective.

BTW, I'm NOT YOUR dear fellow.

I wasn't talking to your my dear chap. I was talking to your alias or whoever fitZ08 is...

By doing what I suggest you can play is all keys in all positions. Think about it. It is how jazz improvisation is currently taught. The emphasis is on the nature of scales, how they are constructed. Intervals, where they are on the fretboard, and application, the manner in which they can be creatively applied , rather than learning notes and scales parrot fashion. Much the same way as mathematics is taught in schools today without huge emphasis on learning the times tables parrot fashion. The concept of multiplication is the key to moving through "the next door" not memorising the numbers.

If your system works for you thats great but once you have the theory you can apply it to any key you might want to.

A lot of guitarists use the act of memorising notes and scales as a badge of honour or a rite of passage when all that is needed is an understanding of the theory and more time on creative practice.

 

[jfrog]

Your opinion may be valid for those who don't need it. However, there are some who like to play in ALL twelve keys. Some SIMULTANEOUSLY. Not just a few. Anal is only a limited perspective.

BTW, I'm NOT YOUR dear fellow.

As my kids might reply: "Don't you know sarcasm when you hear it?!"

(that may be a quote from "Charlie Brown Christmas")

 

[muttley600]

BTW,I know where all the notes are but I still suck on guitar.

Yeh, well I know where all the intervals are and I still suck at it too. Isn't that the point though. Being creative with what you know is the key to it.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

However, there are some who like to play in ALL twelve keys. Some SIMULTANEOUSLY. Not just a few.

Wait, I'm sorry, I gotta call a spade a spade.

You play in all twelve keys at once?






I just deleted the beginnings of my fourth response to the absurdity of that statement. We'll just say that I've gone through a crack on how many modes you play in at the same time, a vague reference to serialism, tequila, and why the two never should mix, a request for a recording of this, and a comment on if you're playing in every possible tonic at the same time, then can you really say you're playing in any of them, et al.

Really, I would just LOVE to hear what exactly you mean by that.

 

[Gear_Junky]

whaddaya think those 12-neck gibson guitars are for?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Really, I would just LOVE to hear what exactly you mean by that.

Hmmmm, I'd say I got your attention. Of course I play in ALL twelve keys at once. One key is all keys. Theres ONLY !2 notes. I don't give a damn what you think, but when I play, I organize my thinking within them.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Hmmmm, I'd say I got your attention. Of course I play in ALL twelve keys at once. One key is all keys. Theres ONLY !2 notes. I don't give a damn what you think, but when I play, I organize my thinking within them.

Well, yeah, but "key" has some strong traditional connotations in the western musical world - it refers to the harmonic framework of either an entire peice of music or a particular passage. If you want to deconstruct the notion of "key" down to the level of "there are twelve pitches, and I use them all," that's all very well and good, but you're sort of missing the point that by "key" we're really talking about "the tonic is a triad based on this particular note, the V chord is either a triad or more aptly a 7th chord built off the 5th of whatever particular scale we happen to be in the moment off the tonic," etc.

If what you're trying to say is that there's no reason you can't use any of the twelve pitches of the chromatic scale over basically anything provided you can find a way to make it resolve, then I'm going to say "yes, you're right." However, if you're going to say that this means you play in all twelve keys at once, then I'm going to suggest you sign up for an intro to music theory class at your local community college.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Well, yeah, but "key" has some strong traditional connotations in the western musical world - it refers to the harmonic framework of either an entire peice of music or a particular passage.

The only connotation playing in "one key" has....is pleasing the listeners ear. Which of course is what all musicians try to do However, have you ever listened to the musical rhelm of "tone clusters" and or wholetone music constructions? Tell me those are built around "one key" and I submit..."you sign up for an intro to music theory class at your local community college."

Look, all I'm trying to do is suggest to people who WANT to improve their "potential", is to grasp the fundamental concept of "know thy notes on the fretboard" Beyond that, frankly, I don't give a flying fuck what anyone else chooses or not chooses to do with my advice. If you want to argue over semantics within musical "connotations", or why one should not be concerned with knowing thier fretboard notes, your barking up the wrong tree.

As to western civilization music, untill one understands that the octave can be divided into MANY MANY different graduations of tones, not just the 12 we
use in the system we have been indoctrinated to use, they won't even understand the REASON for using it, nor WHY the fretboard is designed as it is.
Heck, in other cultures, the octave is divided up into as many as a HUNDRED or more tones. Tell me the musicians using that system play in "one key" and I submit you "show me the keys"

Frankly, musicians use tones other than the diatonic tones in a key all the time. Half-step connections, flat and sharped 5ths 9ths and 11ths, not to mention juxtaposioning whole tone, diminished scales/chords, not to mention downright imposing other diatonic/other scales over "traditional" scores. Tell me those musicians are using a "one key" mentality and I submit you "don't get it". They may resolve these strokes of rebellion to satisfy the listeners desire for "relief", but then again, some musicians don't give a damn about it. However, how does one even begin to understand these relationships unless they "know thy fretboard". To illustrate, show me a series of chromatic doublestops on two strings through ALL twelve frets, that is a round of 5ths, using ONLY b7ths and thirds.

BTW, I'm finished with this discussion Either you DO or DON"T want to "know" your fretboard. I've done what I can to suggest the way to do it. PERIOD.
fitZ

 

[ecktronic]

So how many of you are masters of the fretboard? How did you learn it? I hear that alot of the self taught never bother to learn the entire fretboard.

Heres a free very simple programme that teaches you the fret board notes.

http://www.francoisbrisson.com/fretboardwarrior/

Eck

 

[muttley600]

The only connotation playing in "one key" has....is pleasing the listeners ear. Which of course is what all musicians try to do However, have you ever listened to the musical rhelm of "tone clusters" and or wholetone music constructions? Tell me those are built around "one key" and I submit..."you sign up for an intro to music theory class at your local community college."

Look, all I'm trying to do is suggest to people who WANT to improve their "potential", is to grasp the fundamental concept of "know thy notes on the fretboard" Beyond that, frankly, I don't give a flying fuck what anyone else chooses or not chooses to do with my advice. If you want to argue over semantics within musical "connotations", or why one should not be concerned with knowing thier fretboard notes, your barking up the wrong tree.

As to western civilization music, untill one understands that the octave can be divided into MANY MANY different graduations of tones, not just the 12 we
use in the system we have been indoctrinated to use, they won't even understand the REASON for using it, nor WHY the fretboard is designed as it is.
Heck, in other cultures, the octave is divided up into as many as a HUNDRED or more tones. Tell me the musicians using that system play in "one key" and I submit you "show me the keys"

Frankly, musicians use tones other than the diatonic tones in a key all the time. Half-step connections, flat and sharped 5ths 9ths and 11ths, not to mention juxtaposioning whole tone, diminished scales/chords, not to mention downright imposing other diatonic/other scales over "traditional" scores. Tell me those musicians are using a "one key" mentality and I submit you "don't get it". They may resolve these strokes of rebellion to satisfy the listeners desire for "relief", but then again, some musicians don't give a damn about it. However, how does one even begin to understand these relationships unless they "know thy fretboard". To illustrate, show me a series of chromatic doublestops on two strings through ALL twelve frets, that is a round of 5ths, using ONLY b7ths and thirds.

BTW, I'm finished with this discussion Either you DO or DON"T want to "know" your fretboard. I've done what I can to suggest the way to do it. PERIOD.
fitZ

You are talking absolute rubbish and if you persist someone who knows A LOT more about the subject than you is going to come along an piss all all over you so I suggest you shut up now. At the moment that person is likely to be me. Why? because I do know a lot more about it than you seem to understand.

You have been called out for talking rubbish and you are trying to justify the importance of your advice. Your notion that you need to memorise every note on the fingerboard is not relevant. Your supposed understanding of the history and practice of scales, tunings and temperaments is inaccurate and misinformed.

You irritated me when you said this to me

Your opinion may be valid for those who don't need it.

I tried to ignore it but you but you just won't shut up. So, let it drop or I will challenge you to back up some of this rubbish you're posting. Oh and for the record I don't remember expressing an opinion what I expressed was the method that was and has been used to teach music theory and composition since 12ET has become the norm. You have now started to delve into the world of microtonal division and atonality to try and support your argument. That is not relevant but if you want I can give you a lesson there too.

I have given advice and answered questions factually regarding the guitar, intonation , tuning and temperament many times here without your kind of crass response so I guess people do find my "opinion valid". Everyone seems to find your "opinion" worthless. So like like I say give it a rest or someone is going to come along and piss all over you..

 

[Gear_Junky]

Heck, in other cultures, the octave is divided up into as many as a HUNDRED or more tones.

sure they do. or just 5. either sounds pretty boring, especially the more you listen

there's no conspiracy behind things like "western" music system and the metric system - they are just the most versatile, as dictated by nature.

yes, listeners want "relief", just like eaters want satisfaction from food.

so if a chef doesn't "care" about that, he starts serving fried hay or toasted nutshells (because he's "expressing himself")... you get my drift.

i'm not saying we should all settle for being "rachel ray" of music. but extremes are not always "deep" or "spiritual" either. People at american idol tryouts too think that they're doing something special.

IMHO, of course

but we don't really need to get into non-12 music systems as reason to "learn thy notes" - it's a good idea anyway, only it's easier done through use than by rote.

btw, guitar fretting system (and tuning) are doing pretty well compared to oriental fretted instruments

 

[DrewPeterson7]

The only connotation playing in "one key" has....is pleasing the listeners ear. Which of course is what all musicians try to do However, have you ever listened to the musical rhelm of "tone clusters" and or wholetone music constructions? Tell me those are built around "one key" and I submit..."you sign up for an intro to music theory class at your local community college."

Look, all I'm trying to do is suggest to people who WANT to improve their "potential", is to grasp the fundamental concept of "know thy notes on the fretboard" Beyond that, frankly, I don't give a flying fuck what anyone else chooses or not chooses to do with my advice. If you want to argue over semantics within musical "connotations", or why one should not be concerned with knowing thier fretboard notes, your barking up the wrong tree.

As to western civilization music, untill one understands that the octave can be divided into MANY MANY different graduations of tones, not just the 12 we
use in the system we have been indoctrinated to use, they won't even understand the REASON for using it, nor WHY the fretboard is designed as it is.
Heck, in other cultures, the octave is divided up into as many as a HUNDRED or more tones. Tell me the musicians using that system play in "one key" and I submit you "show me the keys"

Frankly, musicians use tones other than the diatonic tones in a key all the time. Half-step connections, flat and sharped 5ths 9ths and 11ths, not to mention juxtaposioning whole tone, diminished scales/chords, not to mention downright imposing other diatonic/other scales over "traditional" scores. Tell me those musicians are using a "one key" mentality and I submit you "don't get it". They may resolve these strokes of rebellion to satisfy the listeners desire for "relief", but then again, some musicians don't give a damn about it. However, how does one even begin to understand these relationships unless they "know thy fretboard". To illustrate, show me a series of chromatic doublestops on two strings through ALL twelve frets, that is a round of 5ths, using ONLY b7ths and thirds.

BTW, I'm finished with this discussion Either you DO or DON"T want to "know" your fretboard. I've done what I can to suggest the way to do it. PERIOD.
fitZ

I humbly submit that you do not understand the concept of a key center if your way of saying that musicians play in all keys at once is using a non-diatonic b9 on a dominant chord.

Furthermore, I humbly submit that none of this has a thing to do with memorizing the fretboard. You can know your music theory cold without having any clue what the third fret note is on the second thickest string. We have a word for these people - several, in fact. Perhaps you've heard of pianists? Flautists? Saxaphonists?

Playing a non-diatonic pitch in a progression isn't the same as playing in a different key, bro. Sure, you're stepping outside of the tonality you may be more-or-less inside, but the concept of tonality is one that is very fundamentally removed from that of a key center (which makes no reference to major, minor, dorian, whatever, but rather simply identifies the 'axis' around which the harmony is centered).

I appreciate you wanting to do a bit of cock measuring in here, and if that makes you feel better, then so much the merrier. But you really have no idea what you're talking about - you're making blatantly incorrect statements ("I play in all 12 keys at once") and then trying to make complex pedantic arguments to make it seem like maybe you're right and we're not. Sorry mate, you may have memorized some stuff on chord construction, but it seems like you never quite got the distinction between tonality and key center. Trust me, an entry level refresher would do you good.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

And again, what does this have to do with "knowing" the fretboard? Are you just trolling and looking to pick a fight, or do you really think that there's some connection between using non-diatonic chord tones for tension and having the fretboard memorized?

I mean, sure it doesn't hurt, but teach a keyboard player a few b9 grips and they can toss them around in a blues tune just as well as I can...