Do you know the note names on the fretboard?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Sorry mate, you may have memorized some stuff on chord construction, but it seems like you never quite got the distinction between tonality and key center.

Bullshit. You never grasped the fact that when you play in "one tone center", your brain is simply organizing the relevant tones from ALL of them. And if you don't know which tones are where on the fretboard, you may figure them out by ear, but have no idea how to use the rest against that tone center. So fuck you pal.

do you really think that there's some connection between using non-diatonic chord tones for tension and having the fretboard memorized?

Do you really think knowing the fretboard is not relevant to being a better player?

I mean, sure it doesn't hurt, but teach a keyboard player a few b9 grips and they can toss them around in a blues tune just as well as I can...

Thats the funniest thing I've ever heard. You should start a new occupation....as a comedien.

 

[Superhuman]

Wow, some of you guys that are big into theory have very strong opinions on this Not trying to offend anyone but to me, the only thing that knowing all of this stuff really does is help to explain things to like-minded people. Does it actually make you a better player? I would be sceptical of that. Should theory be avoided? No, but if you have a problem learning in mathmatical terms then it will just turn you off the instrument. There are plenty of virtuoso players out there that know their theory and plenty that don't. A good ear and understanding of fretboard tones, good technique and a good imagination is what makes good music - theory can be a useful tool if you are stuck in a rut or for reference but just because you know the dogma doesnt make you a better player.

 

[castlerock]

There are plenty of virtuoso players out there that know their theory and plenty that don't. A good ear and understanding of fretboard tones, good technique and a good imagination is what makes good music - theory can be a useful tool if you are stuck in a rut or for reference but just because you know the dogma doesnt make you a better player.

since i've heard your playing, i have to agree with you 99%. (if your doing improv solos and shit then it really helps to know the fretboard.)

i know my fret board and quite a bit of theory (though not what i used to) but rarely use it. i'm a pattern player and always will be.

actually, i think your lack of knowledge of the fretboard has made your playing style unique and interesting. your guitar work in Contact was excellent and didn't sound like anyone else...same goes for your other work.

to the theory snobs - theory is useless without style!

(btw, i posted a new tune on myspace =])

 

[castlerock]

Frankly, musicians use tones other than the diatonic tones in a key all the time. Half-step connections, flat and sharped 5ths 9ths and 11ths, not to mention juxtaposioning whole tone, diminished scales/chords, not to mention downright imposing other diatonic/other scales over "traditional" scores. Tell me those musicians are using a "one key" mentality and I submit you "don't get it". They may resolve these strokes of rebellion to satisfy the listeners desire for "relief", but then again, some musicians don't give a damn about it. However, how does one even begin to understand these relationships unless they "know thy fretboard". To illustrate, show me a series of chromatic doublestops on two strings through ALL twelve frets, that is a round of 5ths, using ONLY b7ths and thirds.

this is generally referred to as playing in different scales and modes. you only ever play in one key at once.

Bullshit. You never grasped the fact that when you play in "one tone center", your brain is simply organizing the relevant tones from ALL of them. And if you don't know which tones are where on the fretboard, you may figure them out by ear, but have no idea how to use the rest against that tone center. So fuck you pal.

all of this superior knowledge has obviously made you an asshole. try forgetting some of it.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Bullshit. You never grasped the fact that when you play in "one tone center", your brain is simply organizing the relevant tones from ALL of them. And if you don't know which tones are where on the fretboard, you may figure them out by ear, but have no idea how to use the rest against that tone center. So fuck you pal.

Good lord, dude, would it kill you to try to stay civil?

Let me try to walk you through this again. There are twelve pitches, and only twelve pitches, in the chromatic scale that forms the basis of western music (for the sake of simplicity we're ignoring "blue notes" and quarter-tones and the like for now, but really including them wouldn't make this incorrect, it'd just take a LOT longer to talk through). True, every single one of them can be related to your "tonic" note, when you're playing in a certain key.

But that's the whole point.

It's not the fact that they DO relate, but rather HOW they relate that defines the relationship between any series of notes in a particular key. The intervallic structure exists both between any two notes, but also any two notes and wherever the "third" note that would represent the tonic happens to be. A G and a B played together are a major third, right? But if the key you're playing in happens to be C, then those two pitches will suggest a VERY different "feeling" than they would if the key was G. In C, you've got the strong sense of tension from the B that "wants" to resolve up a half step to C, while the G remains constant but flips in role from the root to the 5th.

A G-B diad in the key of C sounds very tense - in G, meanwhile, it sounds VERY resolved. They tonic center completely defines how the pitches relate to each other and to the listener's ear. THAT's what people are talking about when they say "key" - the musical framework within which the pitches your ear is hearing relate to each other. Music does not occur in a vacuum.

Sorry man, I'm not just some punk kid who's talking trash on the net here - I got a (marginally, to be fair) more practical degree in college, but I also minored in theory and composition. Trust me, you're not making any sense. Open your mind up a bit and rethink the way you understand "keys" and one day you may thank me.

 

[thebigcheese]

I never really have the patience for it, but I really ought to get way more into all the theory stuff. I've played drums literally all my life, so it was weird for me to transition into having notes to worry about. I've done alright, but most of the stuff I come up with is on accident. I certainly can't solo, that's for sure.

 

[XLR]

...you only ever play in one key at once...

I use polytonality occasionally when improvising.

Ever heard the music of Darius Milhaud?

 

[castlerock]

I use polytonality occasionally when improvising.

Ever heard the music of Darius Milhaud?

no, i haven't but i'll look it up. please explain what you mean by using polytonality. it sounds interesting.

 

[muttley600]

no, i haven't but i'll look it up. please explain what you mean by using polytonality. it sounds interesting.

It's the use of more than two keys simultaneously. It has been considered irrelevant by many composers and musicologists over the years in so far as harmonic constructs are concerned since it operates without reference to a harmonic reference or tonic. As a compositional tool it has been largely ignored over the last 20 in years in favour of Bitonal which does allow some reference to intervals and a harmonic relationship. It has been used classically by the likes of Stravinsky and more recently Philip Glass. There is a wealth of Jazz which has employed it as a tool. Most has been enjoyed from a sonic view point rather than a harmonic one. It certainly does not require that you need to know the notes on the fretboard to participate..

 

[XLR]

Polytonality, as it's customarily used in music terminology, means using two or more tonalities at the same time.

 

[castlerock]

It's the use of more than two keys simultaneously. It has been considered irrelevant by many composers and musicologists over the years in so far as harmonic constructs are concerned since it operates without reference to a harmonic reference or tonic. As a compositional tool it has been largely ignored over the last 20 in years in favour of Bitonal which does allow some reference to intervals and a harmonic relationship. It has been used classically by the likes of Stravinsky and more recently Philip Glass. There is a wealth of Jazz which has employed it as a tool. Most has been enjoyed from a sonic view point rather than a harmonic one. It certainly does not require that you need to know the notes on the fretboard to participate..

Polytonality, as it's customarily used in music terminology, means using two or more tonalities at the same time.

thank guys. it's been 22 years since i've really studied theory...i took two years of it in high school and it was based around jazz composition.

it took about 20 min. for that term to ring a bell. i heard it in high school. our music instructor used to get us to improv but everyone had to play in a different key (some even encouraged to play random riffs and notes). that was some crazy shit...it sounded great!

i still don't see how it could be used soloing on guitar though.

 

[XLR]

...i still don't see how it could be used soloing on guitar though.

Milhuad desrcribed how, during quiet nights in the country (he grew up in Provence, lucky bastard) he imagined "a thousand simultaneous musics rushing towards me from all directions." His music often sounds like that. And while to a conservative ear that may sound odd, it's not a bad thing at all IMO.

On the practical side, polytonality used in improvising can add a certain lushness and unpredictability that can sound very cool.

 

[muttley600]

Polytonality, as it's customarily used in music terminology, means using two or more tonalities at the same time.

Just to clear it up strictly speaking it means more than two. Two key's would be bitonality. A small distinction I know.

As far as Guitar goes Zappa did quite a bit that could be described as polytonal, there are others.

 

[Vagodeoz]

I played violin for about 10 years, only classical music, reading scores... until I got tired about it and dropped the violin, let my hair grow, started listening metal, and started playing guitar and drums... 100% by ear, no bloddy scores telling me exactly what note to play and where.
However, if needed, it would take me 1-2 seconds top figure it out

 

[XLR]

Just to clear it up strictly speaking it means more than two. Two key's would be bitonality. A small distinction I know.

Well, we're starting to argue semantics instead of discussing music. Does "poly" mean "many" or "more than one"? Definitions differ. Regardless, polytonality as the term is usually used IME, includes bitonality. YMMV.

But arguing this more would be missing the point of the issue at hand. The point is that it IS possible to have more than one tonal center occurring at the same time.

 

[muttley600]

Well, we're starting to argue semantics instead of discussing music. Does "poly" mean "many" or "more than one"? Definitions differ. Regardless, polytonality as the term is usually used IME, includes bitonality. YMMV.

But arguing this more would be missing the point of the issue at hand. The point is that it IS possible to have more than one tonal center occurring at the same time.

Yeh I agree thats why I said a small distinction. The real difference from a compositional point of view is that Bitonality differs in that you are able in most cases to identify a harmonic centre to which both keys will relate. It is a small distinction and not of relevance to me but it is to composers and many musicologists. Even wikipedia glosses over the distinction so I'll leave it at that..

 

[mwthompson]

to the theory snobs - theory is useless without style!

...and nobody ever got on the cover of a guitar magazine because of their vast theory knowledge. I don't like Eric Johnson because he could write a book on theory, I like him because he has an interesting style. Knowing theory doesn't give you style, not by a long shot. I know plenty of music school graduates with lots of theory and even more blah. It's good, but it comes packaged in a plain white container with the word "MUSIC" printed in bold, black letters on the side.

But there's a LOT of value in knowing theory. It's just not going to give you creativity. Personally, I think it's the creativity and originality (without being contrived; like playing in "all" keys, or claiming to, so you look cool.) that's the hardest to achieve. Anyone can memorize vocabulary and grammar, but not everyone can write a book. *shrug*


Then again, maybe I'm just feeling negative about theory right now because both of Fitzpatrick's personalities resemble a double pack of Massengills.



EDIT: Oh yeah, I pretty quick in naming the frets, but not always instant.

 

[castlerock]

...and nobody ever got on the cover of a guitar magazine because of their vast theory knowledge. I don't like Eric Johnson because he could write a book on theory, I like him because he has an interesting style. Knowing theory doesn't give you style, not by a long shot. I know plenty of music school graduates with lots of theory and even more blah. It's good, but it comes packaged in a plain white container with the word "MUSIC" printed in bold, black letters on the side.

agreed, that's exactly what i mean by style. theory will not make a great guitarist, but still....it doesn't hurt to know it. =]

Superhuman (posted in this thread) apparently knows jack about theory or even the notes on the fretboard but he's an amazing guitarist. If you like metal guitar i highly recommend giving him a listen.

Then again, maybe I'm just feeling negative about theory right now because both of Fitzpatrick's personalities resemble a double pack of Massengills.

-LOL- yea, i think that's the general consensus in this thread. =]

 

[muttley600]

agreed, that's exactly what i mean by style. theory will not make a great guitarist, but still....it doesn't hurt to know it. =]

Superhuman (posted in this thread) apparently knows jack about theory or even the notes on the fretboard but he's an amazing guitarist. If you like metal guitar i highly recommend giving him a listen.



-LOL- yea, i think that's the general consensus in this thread. =]

I think most of us agree entirely that without creativity input all the theory in the world will do little. I put my thoughts into post #168.

One thing I think a good grounding does do for any guitarist or musician is to help structure their approach. It speeds up the creative process and allow you to develop ideas faster and understand where they can lead. That is not essential to creativity but a very good aid to progress. For example we can all sit down and watch a good film and enjoy it, but how much more rewarding is it to be able to read the book as well. Music notation is really just another language with a set of rules and grammar. Approach it like that and it will help your creativity.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

One thing I think a good grounding does do for any guitarist or musician is to help structure their approach. It speeds up the creative process and allow you to develop ideas faster and understand where they can lead. That is not essential to creativity but a very good aid to progress. For example we can all sit down and watch a good film and enjoy it, but how much more rewarding is it to be able to read the book as well. Music notation is really just another language with a set of rules and grammar. Approach it like that and it will help your creativity.

I also see it as kind of like a "toolbox," maybe - I always feel bad for the guys who say "I don't want to learn theory because it'll limit my creativity - music shouldn't have rules." Calling music theory a set of "rules" is only true in the loosest sense of the word - sure, diatonic theory can be thought of as "rules" in that it basically says "these notes will sound good together" but once you get past that point and that first set of "rules" theory is all about different approaches to bend and/or break those "rules" and step outside them.

You can get the same results just by trusting your ear... but it's a hell of a lot faster to do so if you understand why it works.