Do Lyrics Even Matter?

[stevey j]

and with music it's the same thing. pop songs/country songs/ and rap songs that focus on important meaningful lyrics also tend to not focus on the instruments being played as much. where as heavy metal /rock songs/ experimental songs that focus less on lyrics tend to focus more on instruments

 

[baker_]

yeah, with crappy lyrics, the music better be good.

i love ben harper. good music, good lyrics, and they mean something.

with modest mouse, on the other hand, i tend to get confused with some songs.

i still love them both.

 

[Jack Russell]

How many of us (musos and non-musos) remember a musical phrase without lyrics accompanying it? Short of the open bars of Beethoven’s 5th – not many. It is a right side left side brain thing – the words go in the left and the music goes in the right and that’s why they stick. You’ve got to have a fairly evolved right side to just remember lots of musical phrases (classic musicians and lead guitarists) and most of us don’t.
So from a neuroscience point of view, for the average listen words matter more, however they will matter less if not accompanied by the right musical phrase – so music matters just as much. It is not a ‘chicken and egg thing’ words come first but are intrinsically linked to the music.
From the writers point of view it just depends which side of your brain dominates when you write songs and that is determined both by genetics and environment – the good thing is you can change your preferred way of working if you practice writing against your preference – mix it up see what happens!

This was an insightful post. I hadn't considered the left and right brain aspect before.

 

[DVincentW]

The lyrics continue ...

I cant begin to explain the discussions/debates I have engaged in about lyrics . First , if you are doing Rap , then really thats all there is ;words (which I am sure mean just as much as any other kind of music)... Of course a beat , which has to be throughly bottom heavy to shatter the hearts' aorta . A tempo , syncopated-repetitive-computer generated , or lifted from a previously done song.
In rock music though , I have written maybe 45 or so (finished) songs . As I write them I go on inspiration , if I have to explain , wouldnt be understood .Usually , I am driven to write lyrics to appease the listener , who doesnt hear (no insult intended) 'entertainment' unless it has words. Right now I have 10 or so tunes that need lyrics , I admit this simply because the words have not been given to me . I play guitar , write music with a drummer , we play while recording the two tracks . He and I are very good at listening as we play , usually we can write 3-4 songs in an afternoon . We later add bass , keys whatever .
If I am going to lyriscize my songs , it has to be something I feel . I express my feelings though an instrument , and I believe my words should be just as true .
My mother , a jazz singer for more than 35 years , noticed once how audiences dont start clapping until the lyrics in a pop song start , as if " OH NOW I can recognize it ."

 

[Jack Russell]

I am a big fan of Peter Murphy. And his approach is really to be abstract with the words. It is very rare that you get any meaning at all out of PM's music, as a result. But, when it works, you also get an open canvass of meaning to let your imagination wander.

I like his work because it is lyrical abtract expressionism, which is how I paint when I do art.

However, after awhile I will admit that PM can get frustrating. So, I now tend to think that words that are totally vacant of meaning, are simply unfinished.

A great lyricist, with more time spent on a composition, can really make the song reach a higher level. And I think, in retrospect, that PM may have been "lazy" in his writing (his career has seemed to reach on end actually).

The last I heard from him was a dreadful disc called "Dust" on which he seemed to forego much of his lyrical meanings and went into "chant" mode. Lots of ahs and obscure vocalizations over long tired-out mournful music.

The result was a wall of boring noise. So, that can be the extreme of non-sensical lyric writing.

 

[1ply]

What is the meaning of “meaning?”

What is the meaning of “meaning?”
​

By raising this question, I don’t mean to me Clintonesque (What is “is?”) I have read this thread a couple of times and I have reflected upon previous debates about the meaning of texts I have had with others and with myself. I have some questions and observations. In this post, I will use the term author, writer and singer interchangeably as I will with the terms reader/hearer.

Here are some possible candidates for the meaning of meaning:
1. The meaning consciously intended by the author.
2. The meaning unconsciously intended by the author.
3. The meaning consciously constructed by the reader.
4. The meaning unconsciously constructed by the reader.

For some writers/readers there is a yawning chasm between the conscious and the unconscious meanings of texts. Perhaps for the more self-reflective the gap is smaller.

What happens to meaning when a character speaks?​

What does “meaning” mean when the author creates or meets characters and lets the characters sing their songs even though the author may not endorse the characters’ perspective? Maybe the writer did at some an earlier time but not presently share the characters perspective or maybe the author is just good at capturing a characters perspective.

How is the meaning of the text influenced by its literary context and influence its literary context?​

It seems to me, we recognize/create the meaning of a text within the family of texts with which we are consciously and unconsciously familiar. To the extent a text is read, it affects the future literary context and takes on other meanings as it is deconstructed and reconstructed.

What happens to meaning when there is a subtext?​

A text may have a sub-text. Isaiah’s song of the vineyard (Isaiah 5: 1-7) provides a good example.
“Let me sing for my beloved
my love-song concerning his vineyard:
My beloved had a vineyard
on a very fertile hill.
He dug it and cleared it of stones,
and planted it with choice vines;
he built a watch-tower in the midst of it,
and hewed out a wine vat in it;
he expected it to yield grapes,
but it yielded wild grapes.

And now, inhabitants of Jerusalem
and people of Judah,
judge between me
and my vineyard.
What more was there to do for my vineyard
that I have not done in it?
When I expected it to yield grapes,
why did it yield wild grapes?

And now I will tell you
what I will do to my vineyard.
I will remove its hedge,
and it shall be devoured;
I will break down its wall,
and it shall be trampled down.
I will make it a waste;
it shall not be pruned or hoed,
and it shall be overgrown with briers and thorns;
I will also command the clouds
that they rain no rain upon it.

For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts
is the house of Israel,
and the people of Judah
are his pleasant planting;
he expected justice,
but saw bloodshed;
righteousness,
but heard a cry!” (NRSV)

I think the text operates on three levels. On the surface level the song is a song about a winemaker and his vineyard. The simple might only hear the text on this level. The wise might hear this text on a deeper level. It is about marital infidelity (in classical Hebrew women were likened to vineyards). The wise might think they were in a position to judge a woman guilty of adultery. Isaiah springs the trap. On the deepest level the text is about God’s relationship with Zion (in classical Hebrew cities are feminine). The judges are judged and found to be wanting.

Surely you can think of modern examples of multivalent texts.

How are meanings of texts influenced by languages?​

Writers who are familiar with other languages may face a peculiar difficulty if the language in which they first compose a text differs from the language in which the text is published. There is no 1:1 correspondence in translation. Sometimes one language lacks a term that is at home in another. What is an author to do, especially in poetry where economy of language does not allow an explanation? What happens in the mind of multilingual readers? Readers may retrovert a text into another language and discover/create new meanings of this translated text. Readers may retrovert a text into several languages and compare the meaning the a text has in each language.

So what?​

I feel frustration as a writer when I write texts that may be misinterpreted and counter-interpreted (the reader intentionally either consciously or unconsciously subverts the conscious or subconscious meaning of the author). I hate it when my texts are made to perform unnatural acts when they are tortured into saying things they did not and perhaps do not mean. I find this problem especially acute in poetry. I think it is harder to misinterpret and counter-interpret a well written essay than it is a well written poem.

More subjects for consideration​

There are many future subjects that must be considered. How are lyrics affected by their music and how do they affect the music? What happens when a writer subverts a musical genre? For example, country and western songs are often used to inspire patriotism. What happens when an artist uses that very form to subvert patriotism? A good example of this is James McMurtry’s God Bless America.

I have to go but I thought I would pose some of these questions to see if it might spark debate.

 

[Whatmysay]

I feel frustration as a writer when I write texts that may be misinterpreted and counter-interpreted (the reader intentionally either consciously or unconsciously subverts the conscious or subconscious meaning of the author). I hate it when my texts are made to perform unnatural acts when they are tortured into saying things they did not and perhaps do not mean. I find this problem especially acute in poetry. I think it is harder to misinterpret and counter-interpret a well written essay than it is a well written poem.

There is no misinterpretation – there is only interpretation. As you note with poetry the more symbolic the words the more likely there will be a variety of interpretation. No one is making the work perform ‘unnatural acts’ or ‘torturing’ the work – in fact the listener/readers interpretation is the most ‘natural’ perception of the work for them. Even as the creator of the work it is judgemental to believe there is only one perfect meaning to it all (on any level of interpretation).

Clearly you take a Platonic view of the world and that it is the job of the artist to show us the truth (most importantly one truth) to the listener and reader. I am whole heartedly a constructivist, knowing meaning is created through the interplay of text with the individual. The ‘meaning’ is then defined by context and always will.

To me ‘The Tramp’ in comparison to Mr Bean seems dated an irrelevant, however both Chaplin and Atkinson apply exactly the same rules and techniques of physical comedy so why should it be different? ‘Start me Up’ by the Stones had a very different meaning in the context of the Microsoft campaign then it did on their album.

Meaning is ‘construct’ of time, place and participants – change any element of this and you will probably change individuals interpretation. There can be aggregated averages, like the majority would agree that ‘Michelle’ by the Beatles is about a relationship with a French girl – still some might think she was Belgian or Swiss.

The job of the artists is to engage an audience not send a specific message –that’s advertising or propaganda.

That’s also why the interplay between the music and the lyrics is vital – sometimes the prosody gives another level to meaning way beyond even the most obscure symbolism. And to add to my posted above about left/right-side brain – this is another reason why words and music are equally important to me. The song is a virus let it mutate and spread.

PS

(the reader intentionally either consciously or unconsciously subverts the conscious or subconscious meaning of the author).

seriously how could I '. . .intentionally . . .unconciously subvert the . . . subconcious meaning of the author'

Man you were in 'flow' when you wrote that!

 

[1ply]

As I hoped, my previous post did create a spark. I agree that I did get into the flow and freely acknowledge that some and maybe much of what I said was wrong. Dialogue helps me to separate the diamonds from the dung hills.

We do disagree on the job of the artist. I believe truth and beauty should kiss.

Perhaps my view that the job of the artist is to convey truth is influenced by the environments to which I have been exposed. I have lived and do live in worlds filled with lies. “We don’t torture.” “The measure of a man is the length of his penis.” (Ok, you caught me, this is not a direct quote but how else can I explain all of the spam for penis enlargements) “The measure of a woman is the size of her breasts.” “The one who dies with the most toys wins.” “Behave well on my plantation and God will reward you in Heaven.” “We only care about the truth.” “We love you.” “We are doing this for your own good.” “We are a Christian nation.” "I am innocent."

I find approximations of the truth refreshing. I thirst for truth. I want to rid myself of all deceptions and self-deceptions. I desire to expose my facilitating lies. Why do I want to cooperate in making myself more stupid? In my life I seek to convey truth and live on the basis of what I believe to be true. I want to bet the farm on my perception of the truth. Yes, my perception of truth will change. Hopefully, it will improve. Personally, I find that living the truth helps me to discover the truth.

I want to tell the truth as I know it in my poetry, lyrics and songs. I believe that truth transcends my knowing of it but I seek to improve my approximations. Lies are like counterfeit money. There is so much of it in our system that we are on the verge of collapse.

Does this mean that I believe art is propaganda or advertising? Is this a bit judgmental? Great art may be political but does this reduce it to propaganda?

This is the first time I have been called a Platonist. I think my view of art and its relationship to truth actually predates Plato. I disagree with Plato on so many things but this conversation is for another time and place.

There is no misinterpretation – there is only interpretation.

Is this a general assertion or only an assertion which applies only to the language-game of lyrics? I initially understood you to make this claim only for the language-game of lyrics but wondered if I correctly interpreted you when you made a later statement that you were a constructivist. Could you please clarify this for me?

Peace

 

[Freddy]

Well, I think a lot of songs are multivalent. Not all, but a good few. Whether or not they were written that way deliberately, I cannot tell.

Take "Blackbird" for example:

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these sunken eyes and learn to see
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to be free.

Blackbird fly Blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.

Blackbird fly Blackbird fly
Into the light of the dark black night.

Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
You were only waiting for this moment to arise.​

I'm not convinced that this is solely about a bird

But, as to the importance of every listener understanding the full intent of a song, I am with Whatmysay on this, I think.

Unless a song can only have one meaning, I don't see this as feasible. Even when it seems to be absolutely unmistakeable, each member of the audience brings their own experience to bear and the supposedly crystal clear message flies in directions the writer could never imagine... and I think that is a great thing.

This is assuming that someone actually listens to the lyric, of course, rather than just hears it. Often it is only heard.

One diference between poetry and a song lyric is the time in which it is experienced. A song is heard in an instant and drives along at its own speed. The message is either instantly received or it isn't (in most cases). It may of course be repeated, and repetition may draw attention, but it is less likely to be studied and reread in the way a poem may be. This leaves room for all sorts of misunderstandings ("Scuse me while I kiss this guy" .. "Scuse me while I kiss the sky").

I am sure that we could have a debate on Truth. Is your Truth the same as my Truth? Maybe, maybe not. We each carry our own truth with us. There may be an absolute Truth, but I cannot know that it is the same as mine.

For me, I certainly don't set out to lie. I want my lyrics to hold some truth. Maybe they explain a perspective or draw attention to a different way of thinking, or merely strike a chord in the listener that brings back a memory, or reminds them of something important (like love).

It is an interactive medium. Songs are meant to be heard. In the act of hearing, they are changed, and in the mind of each listener a fresh dialogue takes place.

Maybe.

The title of this thread is "Do lyrics even matter?". Well, they do to me. I don't think they do to my wife. If she can dance to it, it's good

 

[Whatmysay]

You are correct 1Ply to assume my constructivist view goes beyond song lyrics.

Since Descartes it has been clear that our senses betray us and are fallible – leaving him with the only option to justify our existence is being able to contemplate that existence inside our heads: ‘I think therefore I am’. Or as an Ausie ‘I drink therefore I . . . ah, something’.

Then comes along fMIR and shows us that even inside our heads we are all wired up differently. In the face of an inconsistent system of input and processing it is a wonder we can even arbitrarily agree on the colour ‘blue’ as a society.

But we do, and from evolutionary psychology research shows that as the ‘social’ capacities of our ancestors (particularly language) increased those more inconsistent perceptions of the world could be mediated into a unified view – this obviously increases survival (It’s good we all know the difference between a woolly mammoth and a tree – I can see a Larson cartoon in there) so the gene has been passed down and refined.

Then comes along religion (a vestigial over-shoot of our social evolution) and it starts making claims about absolute truths. Absolute truths are just the manifestation of religion’s need to stabilise and spread. It is vital that we do not confused collective views (which maybe beneficial to our community – like don’t kill) and absolute truth.

Actually for me there is no ‘truth’ to be found – there is context and there is individual perception – we might agree, but it doesn’t mean the phenomena or transaction we have experience has any existence beyond our perception. This is where faith, gods and religion comes in to provide that metaphysical scaffold which we are all intertwined and exist beyond us. Of course my beliefs do not include the metaphysics.

I think we are now way off thread here – but you might perceive differently

I do share a perception with Freddy about wives and I think it could be an absolute truth

The title of this thread is "Do lyrics even matter?". Well, they do to me. I don't think they do to my wife. If she can dance to it, it's good

And long may it be so - who wants to talk lyrics when you can see beauty in motion

 

[1ply]

Big Walter Horton

My brother relayed a conversation he had with Big Walter Horton re: the meaning of lyrics. Big Walter Horton said, “Make the lyrics as vague as possible so that everyone will understand them.”

I thought you might like this.

PS. Whatmysay, If you want to continue our previous conversation, maybe you want to step outside to the Dragon's Cave.

 

[1ply]

I wrongly attributed the quotation to Big Walter Horton when I should have actually attributed it to Big Walter The Thunderbird.

 

[Jack Russell]

From Big Walter: “Make the lyrics as vague as possible so that everyone will understand them.”

Hahaha! Exactly. That has in fact always been my approach when I write my own music and lyrics.

One of my most successful tunes at the moment, which has very nice chords and a flowing, positive (almost happy) melody, contains the following abstract violence:

"cover me in sunlight then recover me my sight
tune me to my radio when stars are burning white, here inside my cell
conger up an after-image burning in my eyes
gather up my ashes and then freeze them into ice,
now I make the final stand"

Now these words blow by the listener, and the guys in my band still don't know what I'm singing, after hearing it many times. But it words very very well.

 

[Nightfire]

I hope lyrics matter cause if they dont I spent too much time writing meaningful songs


Mike

 

[Freudian Slip]

Well even if some people are not into the meaning of a song, either the music has to be written around the lyrics or visa versa. So that ranks them a pretty important musicaly before we even get into the meaning.


I'm like Nitefire. Most of the songs I've written are a bit deep.
Not a fan of the bubble gum

Oh, and as for the poll question, the reply is yes to both. Good lyrics invite inturpitation in my book. What may about a preacher to me could ring true as a song about a parent for another and maybe a past friend for another.
The listener always will have to decide what parts are metaphorical and which are not.

For instance.

Stored up inside of me
The words of all mankind

Something is haunting me
That I can’t leave behind

As if it matters now
Words spoke when we were young

But time moves slowly in my head
Your aging words are still not dead

(chorus)
I tried to save myself
But found it over rated
Grant me a silent mind
Where lies are not debated

You spoke with reverence
As if it changes what you say

Promised deliverance
But you your self don’t know the way

Pointed your arm stretched out
As if you’d found a brand new day

Your crooked finger held no truth
It served to rob me of my youth

(repeat chorus)

(bridge)
Swelled up inside my neck
These words that will not go away
White noise that’s held in check
But muffles everything I say
Tried hard to quiet them
But only died a bit each day
They set the price of sin
And count the debts I can’t repay

(repeat chorus to fade out)

I tried to save my
self
But found it over rated
Grant me a silent mind
Where lies are not debated

I tried to save my self
But found it over rated
I’ll build a silent world
Where Time can heal the fated

Copyright 2007, David Epperly




F.S.

 

[rayc]

Lyrics matter much more than polls.

 

[Freudian Slip]

Lyrics matter much more than polls.

F.S.

 

[CadenMya]

StarsPoker digital peremptoriness is an article from advanced imaging, published by cygnus business media on may 1, 2003. Maneuvers dampers readers on stars porker global tour of the sprawling process called "militarization.

 

[tanlith]

At the risk of sounding like some sort of Zen Buddhist Musician Guru Wannabe, I feel compelled to take note of the following:

Many writers today seem to have the misconception that either the music OR the lyrics hold the key to a great song. In my own listening experiences I have seen (er heard?) songs that have amazing lyrics, but the delivery (via the music they are set to) fails to set them off. In the same respect, I have heard some of the most moving music utterly destroyed by what I hesitate to even call "lyrics"

A writer should always strive to find the proper balance between Music & Lyrics. KNOW the instruments that will be used when the song is performed... And UNDERSTAND each instrument’s importance in the song. Something as innocuous as a bass line that is either too complicated or too bland could ruin the overall experience of the message behind the lyrics.

- Tanlith -

 

[Freudian Slip]

At the risk of sounding like some sort of Zen Buddhist Musician Guru Wannabe, I feel compelled to take note of the following:

Many writers today seem to have the misconception that either the music OR the lyrics hold the key to a great song. In my own listening experiences I have seen (er heard?) songs that have amazing lyrics, but the delivery (via the music they are set to) fails to set them off. In the same respect, I have heard some of the most moving music utterly destroyed by what I hesitate to even call "lyrics"

A writer should always strive to find the proper balance between Music & Lyrics. KNOW the instruments that will be used when the song is performed... And UNDERSTAND each instrument’s importance in the song. Something as innocuous as a bass line that is either too complicated or too bland could ruin the overall experience of the message behind the lyrics.

- Tanlith -

Well said.

I personally though you sounded more like a pompous ideologue

F.S.