Do in-amp modeling artifacts come through if you mic the amp?

[ashcat_lt]

I started with a crate amp and a Radio Shack microphone. That's neither here nor there.

I have a problem with the idea of deliberately compromising the source sound in order to make up for deficiencies in the recording chain. Sure, it is possible that you've just dialed in a completely suck tone and think it's the raddest thing ever. You'll figure it out at some point.

But assuming that you're not a total fuck up, and actually have a reasonable sense of how the guitar needs to sound for the song, then you dial in that tone at the amp. It is then the engineer's job to not fuck it up. If he sticks a 57 in front of it and smashes it to hell and then it sucks... Well, whose fault is that?

And yes I'm aware that in most cases on this forum the guitarist and engineer are the same person. The point remains.

 

[Farview]

I started with a crate amp and a Radio Shack microphone. That's neither here nor there.

I have a problem with the idea of deliberately compromising the source sound in order to make up for deficiencies in the recording chain. Sure, it is possible that you've just dialed in a completely suck tone and think it's the raddest thing ever. You'll figure it out at some point.

But assuming that you're not a total fuck up, and actually have a reasonable sense of how the guitar needs to sound for the song, then you dial in that tone at the amp. It is then the engineer's job to not fuck it up. If he sticks a 57 in front of it and smashes it to hell and then it sucks... Well, whose fault is that?

And yes I'm aware that in most cases on this forum the guitarist and engineer are the same person. The point remains.

That's one of the reasons why, at my studio, I have the cabinet in the other room and the amp in the control room with the player. When a sound gets dialed in, it is the sound that gets recorded.

There are far too many people that confuse the feeling they get standing in front of the amp with the sound that is actually coming out of it. I've dealt with the problem over and over and over since the mid 80's. By your definition, there are tons and tons of total fuck ups out there.

Anyway, you aren't compromising the guitar tone to make up deficiencies in the recording chain. You are dialing in a guitar tone that records well. Think about it, the sound that you are recording will be heard by many people and could be preserved indefinitely. The sound of the amp in the room will be heard by one person once, assuming that the player is even in the room with the cabinet. AND, if you get a great guitar tone through a 57, it will sound awesome live as well, since 9 times out of 10 anyone listening to your guitar that isn't up on stage with you will be listening to it through a 57. The only person listening to the amp by itself most of the time in the player and the rest of the band. None of the people you are attempting to entertain will hear the raw amp tone.

 

[ecc83]

Morning Ashcat,

Some "pie" for me today! You r are correct that there are no significant harmonics from a guitar pickup past about 6.5kHz (tho' we could dicker as to what "significant" and "passed" mean!)

My spectrum shows the last obvious spike at 8kHz and that is about 54dB down on the mid-band level, I took a line through 520Hz. How'ed I do dis?

Chinese Tele into an 8i6 into PC running Samplitude SE8 24 bits, 44.1kHz and I strummed the top 3 strings at the octave. I dare say if I had gone further up the fretboard and hit it harder I could have produced rather more HF but you are essentially right. Pups, at least Chines Telecaster ones, do not deliver much past 8kHz. The rising noise I am a bit concerned about, firt time I have "specc'ed" the 8i6 and WTF the artefact at 19kHz is I have no idea!

Amps: I pulled the measurements of a middle of road 40 watter (2x EL34, ECC83s, some ICs) . Tricky to interpret since there is no "flat" baseline but even with all tone controls at full cut (T,B,M,) 20kHz is still only 7dB below 1kHz and at full boost 20kHz can be about 6dB above 1kHz.

There is a similar boost/cut pattern as you go below 1kHz since the amp has the basic "smile" or "V" voicing common to the vast majority of guitar amps. A mid "suckout" if you wish.

The amp on control room, speaker in studio is of course a luxury given to few HR bods but they can listen on close back cans and get the sound right on those.

My readings over the years have found that recording electric guitar is done best when...
Distortion effect is kept LOWER than live sound would seem to dictate.

Absolute SPL is kept to sane proportions. Son and I found that an SPL in a very small bedroom with minimal treatment of around 90-95dBC was optimal (20W, EL34 amp into Green back) and that SPL is personally tolerable for a decent time before ear fatigue kicks in and is also acceptable in suburbia for an hour or two at the right time of day!

Dave. (also look up SoS Aug '07)

 

[Trax.Io]

Yes.

 

[SweetDan]

I'll post some examples and descriptions of the setup soon; not at the right computer at the moment.

(months later...)

The promised examples, and an attempt to describe how I mic'd these.

main rhythm guitar
simple mix

So, here's the setup. The amp is a Vox VT30. (The guitar is a Dean vendetta - cheapie, 2 passive humbuckers). I mic'd up the amp with a SM57 about 1" from the grille, slightly off-center and pointed straight in, as well as a condenser mic about 4 or 5' back. (In the mix, the doubled guitar part is nearly the same, but with bridge pickups only; the bass is DI, and the drums are midi.)

I dialed in the sounds on the vox starting with the "Nu-metal" preset, dialed the gain down to 40% and vol to 70%, treble at 75%, mid at 50%, and bass rolled off with about 15%; and changed the default fx to the comp/chorus setting.

EDIT: just realized I need to record it all again (well, the guitars at least) DI into the box and use the amp-sims in my DAW...check back in a few months, I guess, for those files. ;-)