Do I really need that master fader during final mix down...It kills my volume!

[Trash Man]

I use a Digidesign 001 on a Mac G3 450 Mhz

Stupid question but I've noticed when I throw that master fader on my mix before mixing down to a stereo track the volume is so low that even w/ a decent mastering job the volume levels on a CD are low as hell...
So what I tried was I assiged each set of instruments an aux fader...It really boosts the levels of everything to my liking.....Drums have a stereo fader, Guitars, and Vox have one...I put a master fader on everything and sure enough, to keep the mix out of the red I really have to keep the volume down on the master fader.
So what I did was I threw out the master fader and just kept the Aux faders below red and bounced that...I mastered that (in T-Racks, I know it's not the greatest but it's all I've got) and compressed it a little so the master would stay out of the red and I really loved the volume levels on a burned CD....nice and loud!
My question is this...I would love to use the Master fader! I just dont know how to use it w/out sacrificing the volume. How do you guys do it? I dont want to compress the hell out of the master fader to get loud, but I do want the control of the master fader...


Any advice is totally appreciated!!!!!

Trash Man

take care

 

[John Sayers]

Wow trashman - can we establish what master fader you are refering to. As I know it there is only one. The master output. All the other channels are grouped through it and the levels of each instrument is governed by each instrument's fader. Aux sends are for sending to effects units.

Where's the problem??

 

[Trash Man]

Sorry,
I suck at explaining myself...The Master fader I'm reffering to is the stero master that all my tracks go to before I mix the song down to a stereo track...
The aux faders are basically busses for each instrument...for example all my drums go into one stereo aux fader, all guitars have one etc...
The problem is that the master fader (over the whole mix) really brings down the overall volume of the song...

Hope that helps...


Trash Man

 

[dachay2tnr]

Excuse the dumb question, but why can't you just raise the master fader to increase the volume?

 

[John Sayers]

what you are calling Aux faders are generally called the Buss or group faders or Group Busses. Like the Mackie 8 buss has eight busses you can subgroup down to. The Aux faders on the other hand are the faders you send to effect units etc.

But dachay2tnr is right - why can't you just turn it up??

 

[Trash Man]

Because when I turn up the master fader it's in the red so damn bad it's ridiclous...I can compress the hell out of it but you know how that sounds....Oh well....Thanks for reading guys...

Trash Man

 

[drstawl]

On my board- the aux sends are connected to their own output jacks and have nothing to do with the main outs unless you route them back into another channel or the stereo returns.
Is the gain on each channel adjusted so that you're not clipping the pre with any of your inputs?
Why not turn down the channel faders to get an acceptable mix and leave the master faders around 0?
That's the way it works when I use the Vegas Pro mixer and it seems to work the same way on my physical mixer. When using say, 10 tracks mixed down to two, each of the ten usually requires a substantial cut at the channel fader to keep the mix in check.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Trashman - If you clip when you increase the Master Fader, but still get a low overall volume, it would seem to me that you have a very uneven mix. In other words, your peaks are too high as compared to your "average" volume. Compression is the usual way to fix that.

This may be being caused by one (or more) of your individual tracks. You might try to see if you can find the track that is the most uneven and use compression on that track before you mixdown. This might allow you to raise the volume on your final mixdown.

I had a mix once where the bass was extremely uneven. Loud and harsh in some spots and low in others. I used a 5:1 compression on that track to even it out and knock down the peaks, before adding it into the mix.

You could also use some additional slight compression (3:1) on the final mix if needed, which hopefully won't suck the life out.

 

[James HE]

I think a big issue here is weather or not you can trust the meters on the master output. I don't trust the meters in Vegas for example as far as I can throw them. (which isn't far cuz they aren't real ) I trust the meters in Wavelab, they are accurate. Trash man, do a mix with the meters in the red, then look at the Wave file afterwards and see if it really ever did hit "0" ... or go get wavelab and the waves L1-Ultramaximiser....

-jhe

 

[Trash Man]

Thanks!

Thanks to everyone that posted! All the info has really really helped and I'm trying all the advice you guys have given me....

Thanks again,

Trash Man

 

[Brenton Trott]

PT levels

Trash man...............it basically works the same as any desk.........if you set levels to zero on each track individually and then bring them all up to the same position you are going to pin the meters. The same in PT, your levels on each track are fine, when you sum them to an Aux track it is going to be hotter so you will have to pull it down. Then in turn, when you sum everything together to a master, you will have to turn that down. The big difference is that on a desk, you start with your group fader down and you bring it up to where you want it, in PT it comes up set to zero, so it will have to come down. If you put just one track into a master, it would be the same.

It sounds to me as if it is a different problem............Is your O/P level set to +4 dbm (pro) or -10 (domestic), I'm not sure but I'm guessing it is switchable, check your preferences..........

I use the master all the time and when I burn CD's they are fine.

John Sayers FYI......in Protools an Aux fader is basically a group fader.

Hope this helps

Brenton

 

[John Sayers]

Thanks for that Brenton - another Aussie, yeah!! welcome to HR.

Cheers
John

 

[Brenton Trott]

John

Thanks John.........actually it's you that got me here...I often hang out on the musicplayer forums, then went to your site (excellent) and a few days ago, ended up here. Got to love this electronic travelling.

cheers
Brenton

 

[MrBlackthorne]

I swear by the Waves Ultramaximizer, and I think a lot of other people do as well. However, I would go through the mix and look at problem instruments that might inconsistenly peak with a wide dynamic range throughout the mix... Vocals are NOTORIOUS for doing this - this was a BIG problem on my band's first EP because the vocals weren't compressed properly. Try a good compressor on the vocals. Other instruments that will give you these types of problems are snare and kick drum (try a compressor and some EQ on these as well). Sometimes string rattles or uneven notes on bass guitar will cause this effect, also.

The point is that you want consistent levels on all instruments, and those instruments that peak inconsistently will cause your entire mix to redline inconsistently as well. Rather than compress the whole mix, find those inconsistencies and just compress them. Then, to add some extra volume, you could try the Ultramaximizer. But you really shouldn't even need it for the pre-master mix.

B

 

[CyanJaguar]

Trash Man,

I think I understand what you are talking about.

In Vegas, If I have all my tracks routed to one master fader, then the song will hit red and still not have volume.

If I assign each instrument or track to a different master, when I create a wav file and check it in siren, it's hitting zero, but not going over, and it has volume( as much as many commercial cd--except mad season by matchbox twenty)

It was something I stumbled on, but Now I have to find out how to make it not hit zero at all, you know, peak at -0.1 or something.

But I would suggest that you dont even bother with your master fader at all, if it is killing your level