Distorted Guitar Recording, Mesa Boogie Amp

[jdier]

Man, am I going to get flamed here...

So I am recording a home project (kit, bass, guitar, vocals) Just regular american rock and roll stuff... Bit of a country/southern rock sound ala Skynard, Crowes, the Band... Nothing too agressive or over the top.

I am rocking through everything that has more of the Band type (cleaner) sounds, but when I get to recording the overdriven guitar for the more rocking numbers, I am falling flat. I am trying to get the guitar to sound right without any drastic eq or effect, instead concentrating on mic placement and amp settings...

I do not think it is equipment... Guitars include Gibson SG, Strat w/ noiseless, Strat with Seymourr Duncans, ASAT... Amps include 68 Fender Champ, 70's Twin Reverb, Mesa Boogie Single Recitifier Solo w/matched 4x12 cab.... Mics include SM57's Beta 57's and Senn421.

I have gotten closest with the Mesa combined with the SG or Strat w/noiseless pickup (.010's) We use the push channel on the head and no other distortion. We have it cranked up to a decent level and we mic it with a close 57, a 57 back 12", a close 421 and then just something in the room like a LDC on Omni at ear level

The parts I cannot get to sound right are the distorted guitar playing chords... Solos are OK, Clean sounds are OK... The distorted rhythm is where I am falling down.

I wind up with one of two things:

1. Thick, scooped, fake sounding distortion. Like I would imagine would come from one of those POD things. It just sounds too fake to me... Like my old SS practice amp that had a METAL setting.

2. Thin, chime-like sounding guitar. When I back off the gain I wind up with a sound that almost sounds like it has harmonic overtones sweeping through it. It sounds like a phase problem, or like I have a flanger on it... (noticable with one mic solo'ed (not a mic phase thing)). The sound is tough to describe, but it almost sounds Chime-y

I have read the stuff at prosound on recording distorted guitars and I have scoured these pages for idea or solutions to similar problems.


I wind up with these basic questions:

1. Is there a chance that I just do not know what a guitar track should sound like prior to being mixed in and eQ'ed? Should I go through the process of mixing one the songs completely as a gut check prior to completing guitar tracking?

2. What the fuck are the harmonics I am hearing? Is this just the sound of a nice tube amp? Anyone have experience with Mesa Boogie Amps?

Any thoughts or suggestions, greatly apprieciated.

Jim

 

[chessrock]

First off, I'd try and simplify things a little, and ditch all those extra mics. You might be over-analyzing things and making the task more complicated than it needs to be.

Pick your favorite mic and stick it against the grille, slightly off-axis and just off the center of the cone.

I'm assuming you've read the Prosoundweb articles by Slipperman? The best thing you can take away from them is to find that ideal gain / volume setting where the speaker starts to engage the cabinet. From there, you'll want to use more mids and slightly less gain than you think you need.

After that, it's all experimentation. No getting around it. Took me at least a couple years of it before I got comfortable with it. It's one of the hardest things to master.

That said, the Mesa Boogies, typically, are very good amps for recording. It probably won't take you as long to get a good sound out of it. Start out with a good amp and the rest is sooo much easier.

 

[kaisun]

same problem...

i have the same problem...and i also wondered if i just wasn't used to hearing the guitar on its own and not part of the mix.

Let me know when/if you solve the puzzle.

 

[smtcharlie]

I agree that recording distorted guitar is an art form. I typically play the other extreme, acoustic, and I find that extreme pretty hard too.

What are you using to monitor your sound? You may want to play your current sound on as many speakers as you can to make sure you hate it.

"Chimy" sound also makes me think that you might want to back off the gain....but I have no good reason or experience to back that up. Just a feeling. I record with one SM57 and I am pretty happy with the sound that I get (Epiphone Dot through MusicMan amp). I try to use as clean of a pre as possible with the 57.

Good luck!

 

[chessrock]

i have the same problem...and i also wondered if i just wasn't used to hearing the guitar on its own and not part of the mix.

These are the kinds of questions you might have better luck with in the Guitar/Bass forum.

Unfortunately, this really isn't much about mics. At least for your particular situation, I'm afraid that mic selection and technique will have relatively little bearing on your outcome. Use good ones when you can, and find the best way to point it. But work the amp to get the recorded tone you're after first.

.

 

[wesley tanner]

i agree with chessy... i forget if the rec. series has it, but some boogies have a switch that gets rid of all the negative feedback (often called an 'extreme' switch) and this can be KEY in puncy tone making... or at least, can change things up quite a bit. my old single rec sucked at a lot of what i tried to use it for... try pushing the volume up and the gain down to get more powertube distortion... how old are those tubes? old tubes suck tone BIG TIME... they'll go out fast if you push the amp regularly, or for long periods of time, or don't use ye olde standby switch... mic placement will have less to do with it, though.

 

[chessrock]

some boogies have a switch that gets rid of all the negative feedback (often called an 'extreme' switch) and this can be KEY in puncy tone making... or at least, can change things up quite a bit.

The recs also have a presence knob. Which is basically what amounts to be an instant "suck knob." You'll want to keep that disengaged.

... try pushing the volume up and the gain down to get more powertube distortion...

Good point. You get much smoother and fuller distortion that way. If you're working with 6L6 power tubes, by the way, then I highly highly recommend switching out to EL-34's for recording. The 6L6's are just scratchy-sounding to me. I don't like recording with them at all.

 

[wesley tanner]

34's are Grrrreat, but don't have much as far as longevity/durability, in my experience. I agree, KILL THE PRESENCE KNOB!!

edit: you'll want to actually stick your ear in there and listen to which speaker sounds best... my advice.... DO IT QUICKLY

 

[Halion]

Fat chance your treble if up too high. Treble moves forward out of the speaker. If your standing up, and the amp is about a meter lower then your ear, alot of treble is gonna fly right past you. Get in front of the speaker and listen. Adjust the treble, then turn the middle and bass up a bit.

Less gain = more definition. Alot of super "fat" sounding guitar songs have fairly clean guitars in them, but layered and octaved on top of each other.

 

[chessrock]

34's are Grrrreat, but don't have much as far as longevity/durability, in my experience.

Verty true. I think we've got a good start, here, as far as some basics for recording a Mesa :

* KILL the suck knob.
* Let the mids live.
* Use EL-34's and change them often.
* Crank the Master Volume and go easy on the gain.
* Find the Slipperman "Point of Speaker / Cabinet Engagement."
* Single dynamic mic just off the center of the speaker cone.
* Adjust to taste while monitoring in a separate room.
* Focus not only on what's coming out of the amp, but how it mixes with everything else.

 

[sile2001]

One of the benefits of control rooms in studios is that it allows you to largely separate what you're hearing through the mic from what you're hearing live. Many times the engineer will stay in the control room and have the guitarist play and have someone else move the mic around until the engineer hears the "right" position. You'd be amazed at how much of a difference 1/2" can make... just play with the position.

 

[wesley tanner]

there's an AWESOME point made by slipperman about how to move the mics around... http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html
look for mic placement, i believe

he blows a lotttta wind but has some killer things to say. his recordings at the end i like to listen to while i clean my studio... always gotta maximize, you know?

 

[jdier]

bringing this one back just to thank the people who posted ideas here for me. I wound up simplifying things a bit and just going with an SM57 and the Senn 421. The 57 was on the grill and the 421 was back about 12 inches.

I could not take the presense all the way down but we cut it from 2 o'clock down to 9 o'clock.

Also started using the non-pushed clean channel and then ran the guitar through a Keeley modified Tube Screamer.

After that, I worked on mic placement and I think I am on track. While I am still struggling a bit with mixing it all down, I am MUCH closer and very confident that I will be able to deliver with 1-2dB cuts or boosts.

Thanks again to all for the help and suggestions.

 

[jonnyc]

You're double tracking the dirty guitars right? Didn't see anyone mention that but I could've missed it. IMO it's essential in getting a good dirty tone.

 

[gcapel]

As a boogie guy with two DC-5 amps, I gonna say this. Kill the presence as the Chess mentioned. Mids are extremely important. Don't cutt'm, bumb'em at least half way on the knob.

It sounds to me that your using the wrong mic. And you only need one. I always use a dynamic sm57 or most of the time the audix I5. A somewhat treated room also helps big time. I;m guess'n your using a condenser, considering your statement about the clean being good but the dirty flat. Most of the time if the song is all clean I will use a condenser. If it's both I just use a dynamic I5 or 57. If you can;t get a kickbutt sound with a 57 or I5 and the mic is in the write place you are doing something strangly wrong.

 

[hungovermorning]

I've gotten a really great tone out of lower wattage amps, about a 18 watt tube guy lets you get a great gnarl and matched with the right cab it can really sing. Gibson amps are fantastic for that. I liked a GA-20 enough, I'm having a DuKane I've got converted to a GA-30, that'll gain for you.
Also, I'm not hugely keen on the 57 for dirty guitar, lower wattage with a Beyer M160 is pretty righteous. Or if you're not in a ribbon mood, I've really liked the Shure Unidyne IV on it or an EV N/D 257B if the mood strikes.

 

[Doug H]

To start with a 57 on the cab is a bit of a myth, or at least it's not easy, you don't just hang a 57 there and get a great sound. Have fun if you're running through a cheap shitty pre.

Then the sound at your speaker can be different than the sound in your room, it probalby has less treble.

The sound pressure in the room can make a difference, too loud and yuo lose definition on the track. Too quiet and...well, most ditorted amps sound like ass when they aren't cranked up "real good".

Now I may get corrected on this, but here is what I've discovered so far to be the lay of the land.

Point the mic directly at the center of the speaker right on the grill then rotate it towards the outside so it's almost 45 degree "off axis" and pointing somewhere a bit closer to the center than the edge of the speaker. This should give some kind of basic starting point.

Turning the mic away from the speaker makes for less puncuated pick attacks. Moving away from the speaker has a similar effect in this regard but brings the room into play as well.

In general the outer edge of the speaker is tighter, thinner sounding with more top end. Closer to the center is flabbier with more bass. IF you back off with a 57 you're going to lose the definition, too close can sometimes make the tone too specific (if that makes any sense).

I'd consider using closer to the edge with good mid range for doubled rythm tracks, and closer to the center with more treble for lead breaks.

If at any time you encounter something that totally conflicts with this post you're probably right lol, this is just where I sit right now with my limited experience, so you be the judge, at least it might help get you going.

These days I usually just stick an Apex 210 (cheap ribbon) in front about 3-6 inches slightly off exis pointing close to the cone, especially if there's only going to be one guitar track in the mix A condensor can be good like that too I think if it can take the sound pressure.

Doug

 

[chessrock]

bringing this one back just to thank the people who posted ideas here for me. I wound up simplifying things a bit and just going with an SM57 and the Senn 421. The 57 was on the grill and the 421 was back about 12 inches.

I could not take the presense all the way down but we cut it from 2 o'clock down to 9 o'clock.

Also started using the non-pushed clean channel and then ran the guitar through a Keeley modified Tube Screamer.

After that, I worked on mic placement and I think I am on track. While I am still struggling a bit with mixing it all down, I am MUCH closer and very confident that I will be able to deliver with 1-2dB cuts or boosts.

Thanks again to all for the help and suggestions.

Well, it's good to know that you finally got around to it!

.

 

[flamin-gitaur]

Hey jdier-
Looks like you got plenty of decent gear to be able to achieve a good sound, which would lead me to think that maybe the sound of the room might be a factor. Do you have any sound treatment? You could be picking more of the room sound than you might want to. Just and idea.

 

[Doug H]

bringing this one back just to thank the people who posted ideas here for me. I wound up simplifying things a bit and just going with an SM57 and the Senn 421. The 57 was on the grill and the 421 was back about 12 inches.

I could not take the presense all the way down but we cut it from 2 o'clock down to 9 o'clock.

Also started using the non-pushed clean channel and then ran the guitar through a Keeley modified Tube Screamer.

After that, I worked on mic placement and I think I am on track. While I am still struggling a bit with mixing it all down, I am MUCH closer and very confident that I will be able to deliver with 1-2dB cuts or boosts.

Thanks again to all for the help and suggestions.

arghh, snookered by the old "old thread" thing again