Disapointing Mix From Studio.......

So... 'professionals' understand the 'rules', yet tell non-professionals there are no rules. And when you break the rules, there are none. But when others do, it's because they are uninformed?
Before you "break a rule", it's important to know why the rule is there, and exactly how you're breaking it. There are times when you need to break a rule, and follow it at other times.

There's a thread on the mp3 clinic about a remake of "The Night They Drove Ol' Dixie Down", where I suggested a rule breaking technique. The rule is broken, but the main discussion is on how to best "break the rule".
 
So... 'professionals' understand the 'rules', yet tell non-professionals there are no rules. And when you break the rules, there are none. But when others do, it's because they are uninformed?
For the record, I *never* said "there are no rules". I happen to hate that statement, personally, because there *are* rules. I think the problem is in the interpretation of the word "rule". By rule, one does not always mean immutable law. Sometimes it means fundamental principle or general guideline.

Of course there are exceptions to those rules/principles/guidelines, times when some rules don't apply, other times when one rule overrides another rule. Its a complex situation and a complex relationship - because audio engineering is a complex process - and it takes a basic understanding of the actual maning of the basic rules/principles/guidelines to understand their place in the engineer's decision process.

But to try and oversimplify that situation and aviod all that important understanding by saying "there are no rules" is a shortcut dodge for those who don't really fundamentally understand what's up and what's down, and it gives the false impression to others that the important principles that need to be learned don't really exist.
You say you can get good results from inferior equipment and software, yet you frown on those who can't afford top of the line, even to the point of mocking.
Wow, where did that come from? I have spent the past two years, including the last few days in a couple of different threads defending the point of view that ears and technique are far more important than gear, and I have never made fun of anybody for not having A-list gear. I have an *extremely* modest project studio in my home myself, with really nothing in the way of what most of us would call "top shelf" hardware.

What I was satirizing here was not that this guy didn't spend money on gear, but rather that he spent a whoe bunch of money on a whole lot of gear that your average pro would not buy or at least list until well after they bought or listed a whole lot of more basic stuff. He has spent a lot of money on a large concentration of unremarkable compressors and "pseudo-mastering devices" that end in "-izer" (rarely do you see someone with all three like this), yet no mention of micropones, only a generic listing of a "tube preamp", a mysterious reference to "Motown EQs" and no monitors outside of the NS-10s.

I'm not saying there's anything necesssarily intrinsically "wrong" with any of that stuff, but taken as a collection it does (to me, anyway) speak volumes about the flavor of knowledge base from which this guy has been working, and it certainly implies a backloaded, fix it later with magic tools approach to audio production, which I do quite disagree with.

Now maybe Albert is on to something with his theory that the guy is rebuilding/upgrading. He does have some good stuff in there too. I was just making the somehat satirical observation that it's not often that one finds a Summit Audio compressor sandwiched between a Finalizer, an Exciter *and* a Maximizer.
I'm just trying to figure out what's being said here. I thought it was all about the music, the sound and the results. If a mix is bad, it's bad regardless of what equipment was used to mix and finish it. Doesn't that also apply when it's good?
Yep, you're absolutely correct IMHO. I agree with that completly.

G.
 
If a mix is bad, it's bad regardless of what equipment was used to mix and finish it. Doesn't that also apply when it's good? Or is a million dollar studio's bad mix less bad cuz they use the best stuff?

I have been recording for a few solid years now and I have NEVER heard of these "Rules"......
 
I have been recording for a few solid years now and I have NEVER heard of these "Rules"......
You've never heard of the 3:1 rule, the rules of gain structure, the rules of how to time delays to song tempos, the rules of boosting vs. cutting EQ, the principle of the Haas effect, the rules of sound dispersion by frequency, the inverse square law, the relationship between frequency and mix depth, software panning laws, the rule of balancing the three dimensions of mixing, the techniques of parallel compression, the principles of getting it right in tracking versus fixing in the mix, the rules of phase relationships in multitracked instruments, etc. etc. etc.

Most of these refer not to "rules" that say that you HAVE to do things such and such a way (though many of them are based uopn more fundamental laws of physics and psychoacoustics that are not debatable or malliable). They are rather a combination of "rules of thumb" and physical principles that are the basis for good solid engineering. Like Harvey said, they're OK to break, but to do so successfuly requires knowing when to break them.

My god, if there were no guidlines or rules of thumb, there'd be no 500 page books on the subject written by experts in the field, there'd be no forums like this one to help steer each other around and through these rules, there'd be no need to practice or get experience, because there'd be nothing to learn or practice; there are no rules, anything goes. And the icing on the cake: anybody could produce a hit recording without having to know a damn thing bout anything because there's nothing to know.

It's that last one that bugs the "there are no rules" people the most. They want to believe that it takes no talent or knowledge or experience or practice to make a good recording, that all they need is a multiband compressor with enough presets and they can have the next Sgt. Pepper.

It don't work that way. There are laws, rules, rules of thumb, principles and techniques that need to be learned and understood, and such learning includes understanding when they apply and when they don't.

G.
 
i agree with you 100% although there is room for different mixing styles you can't add anything to the frequency spectrum.. the beauty of recording and mixing is it's a combonation of science and art.. you can make a technically perfect mix and it may not be as good as an "unperfect" mix... which is what makes mixing an artform. this is true of any art form..

there are always guidelines and theories that cannot be ignored.. a clipped track will always sound like shit.. the sum of way too many low's added up will always sound boomy etc etc.
 
For the life of me, I can't understand what the "hired gun" mixer did with the kick drum. That's just egregious. The rest of his mix is good, though, especially on the guitars. I am particularly impressed with the snare drum you tracked... good work. I think both your mixes have value, but I would not let anything leave my hands with a kick drum that sounded like the second mix. If I ended up making it sound like a freaking reverberant pillow, I'd at least have the decency to replace it with a sampled kick or something.

The lesson you learn from this is probably not to get too attached. You did your job in the tracking, and the band's choices, and the second mixer's choices, are no fault (or responsibility) of yours.
 
I mixed it for the sole purpose of showing THEM and others that even though they charge $50/hr and say they are a professional studio, it doesn't mean you are GUARANTEED a good mix.......
 
I think the "outsider" mix is MUCH better. No offense, but yours sounds too hyped in the highs and lows, like you are trying to make it sound like a stereo system, yet, here I am on studio monitors.

The outsider mix sounds much online with professional CD's I listen to on this system all the time. His mix also has more overall clarity and far less masking effects.

Neither mix thrills me that much, but, having not heard a push mix, it is hard to tell how much work had been done on the tracks to even make them sound this good.
 
the kick in the "studio" mix is unbareable.. but but but i wouldn't be quick to blame the engineer..

I've been in this situation.. this clicky sound is what some of these bands are after.. I don't know why.. it's usually in "heavier" music too.. makes no sense because all the power is gone. I know exactly how they got this sound.. makes me crinche but the engineer bosted all the highs left the mids at or around 0 then boosted the lows a bit. I've had to do this before and it made me sad... but it made my clients really really happy and i guess that's what's important. The rest of the mix isn't too bad..

my vote goes to the first mix for the kick alone.. but if they would have mixed with you i can almost garontee that they would have been "we want to hear the click of the bass drum more" if that's not the case then i am very afraid of that engineer.
 
fivesixonesk8er - what mics did you use on toms?

Anyone any thoughts on how the studio engineer got the really "fat" (for want of a better word) floor tom sound?

this clicky sound is what some of these bands are after.. I don't know why.. it's usually in "heavier" music too.. makes no sense because all the power is gone. I know exactly how they got this sound.. makes me crinche but the engineer bosted all the highs left the mids at or around 0 then boosted the lows a bit. I've had to do this before and it made me sad... but it made my clients really really happy and i guess that's what's important.

If he was going after that "clicky" sound - he's failed miserably. That clicky sound is awesome in the right music but it's gotta be done right.
 
i'm not a fan of the click in any situation, to me it just sucks but that's personal taste... but yeah i do agree... kick just does not sound good at all even for the "click" sound.. stands out and ruins the whole mix.
 
I still stand by how he got it.. probably just cranked the highs.. maybe not but that's what it sounded like to me... ewww
 
arent ns10's technically "home stereo speakers"?


Ummmmm, they are in EVERY big studio I can think of. Every one. Do you have any idea how many commercial releases have been mixed on them? They do sound like ass IMHO, but they are everywhere in pro studios, so I wouldn't really call them "home stereo speakers".
 
I think the "outsider" mix is MUCH better. No offense, but yours sounds too hyped in the highs and lows, like you are trying to make it sound like a stereo system, yet, here I am on studio monitors.

The outsider mix sounds much online with professional CD's I listen to on this system all the time. His mix also has more overall clarity and far less masking effects.

Neither mix thrills me that much, but, having not heard a push mix, it is hard to tell how much work had been done on the tracks to even make them sound this good.

This post is spot on.

I will just add that the "pro mix" actually has drums that you can hear, and is not over-run by ear splitting guitars (and not the good kind of ear splitting- :D ) The vocal treatment on both pretty well blows IMHO though.
 
Ummmmm, they are in EVERY big studio I can think of. Every one. Do you have any idea how many commercial releases have been mixed on them? They do sound like ass IMHO, but they are everywhere in pro studios, so I wouldn't really call them "home stereo speakers".

I'm pretty sure they were designed and marketed initially as home stereo speakers. I've heard this from many sources, but the only one I can find now is wikipedia which would be like blasphemy to quote...!

The reason they are used so widely is because they translate well to everyday setups (apparently).
 
Actually, they both have pros and cons. I like the sound off the geetars on your mix better. I like the Toms on the studio mix better. The rest sux on both, specially the cymbals.
 
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