Difference between LDC and SDC mics

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Yeah, I think Harvey was trying to spank that into my head. Do you mean proximity effect? Off axis would pick up more ambient signals, high and low. Please clarify what effect the off axis rejection would have, so I know.

I just meant earlier that LDCs tend to handle lows better, in the same as a large diaphram dynamic. You 'normally' wouldn't use an SDC on kick drum, although I suppose with the right mic and placement, you could. Earthworks seems to prove this with their drum mic system.

Did I get it wrong? Again?
 
To anyone reading all of the above, I guess all problems got resolved -- but it may take a bit of reading to get all facts straight ;-)

Just thought I'd add a few clarifications, in case someone is still wondering:

A condensor microphone works by having a membrane somehow suspended in an electric field. It is like a capacitor (in some languages it is actually called the equivalent of a "capacitor microphone"). When the membrane is moved by sound hitting it, so that it gets closer or further away from its opposite backplate, an electrode attached to the membrane will vary it's electrical potential and this can be amplified and translated into an electrical signal your pre-amp can pick up.

For this to work, there are two things needed:

1) You need to make sure there is an electrical field between the membrane and the backplate.

2) You need to amplify the signal from the membrane with a highly sensitivy and, most importantly, high impedance amplifier.

There are two ways to to achieve 1). Either by A) an external polarirzation or B) by internal polarzation in the form of an "electret", which is essentially a material that has a static electric field build into it, somehow build into the membrane/backplate. You might vaguely compare this with magnets; A) being an electo-magnet and B) a permanent magnet.

Examples of microphones of type 1A and 1B are e.g. Oktava MC012 and Behringer ECM8000 (both SDC mics).

Both methods will work. There could be a risk that an electret "wears out", but it can be made simpler, and more easily in a way that does not require phantom power. For studio work, external polarization is more commonly encountered.

There are also at least 3 common ways to achieve 2): Either by A) a tube, or B) by a solid state FET, or by a variation of B, a C) solid state integrated circuit in the form of an "op amp", usually with a FET/CMOS input stage.

There are pros and cons of each of these: A tube has a nice built-in distortion that adds a bit of extra colour. On the other hand, a FET is cleaner, but may not colour in the same way, and thus sound more sterile. An op-amp is probably more difficult to get to sound well, but can be laser-trimmed to provide a better matched circuitry than a corresponding discrete FET stage, and thus in some cases provide a more cost-effective solution than a sorted-FET version.

Examples of 2A, 2B and 2C are e.g. Røde NKT, Røde NT1000 (same membrane, just different amplifiers) and CAD M179 (all LDC mics).

All combinations of 1 and 2 are possible, but some are more unusual.

For 1A types of polarization, you need external power, and for the sake of getting a good signal-to-noise ratio, the higher the better. 48V is quite common for this, although some mics work OK'ish on lower polarization voltage. I believe some DPA mics can even work with higher voltages with a special power supply. 1B does not require power for polarization.

All condenser mics require power for their amplication, though. Tube mics, 2A, requires a higher voltage (200V), whereas solid state amps, 2B and 2C, can work on "anything", down to battery operated designs. Note than it is possible to do a "step up", so that the circuitry can work with higher voltages internally than what it is supplied with.


This was the electrical design. Then comes the acoustic design, which includes the issue of small vs. large diaphragm mics.

It is very difficult to do any generalization based on the diaphragm size alone. You need to take the complete acoustic design into consideration. This includes obviously the diaphragm, its material and tension and suspension, the backplate design and distances, the size of the air mass "trapped" inbetween, the number of holes and their position and the acoustic paths to both sides of the membrane, the grill, etc.

Think of this like a system of one or seveal springs with some damping and coupling between it. It is not only the size of the spring, but also the mass, damping, etc.

This all determines the basic characteristics of the mic, including its polar pattern, proximity effect, frequency response and transient characteristics, distortion, etc. The built-in amp of course also influences the sound, but probably less so than the acoustic designs.

But again, all combinations of acoustic designs can be coupled with all kinds of electronic designs... The most unusual, though, would be a variable pattern twin-diaphragm electret LDC with a tube amp...

The simplest mic that can be made is an electret omni directional microphone. These can be good bang-for-the-buck mics.

Probably the most difficult mics to make are tube amplified variable-pattern externally polarized mics.


-- Per.
 
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Great summary, Per.

To amplify(:))a little on the capacitor issue: The capsule is a capacitor. Condenser is just a slightly antiquated synonym for capacitor in the English language.

Consider the capsule as a variable capacitor, controlled by the sound pressure hitting it. As the positively charged membrane is pushed toward the backplate, it pulls more electrons on to the backplate from the connected circuit. As the membrane is pulled farther from it, increasing the distance decreases the charge's effect and electrons flow back into the circuit. This sets up a very small alternating current in the circuit which follows the sound hitting the membrane.

This current is so tiny that, by ohms law (E=IR), it takes a very high resistance (impedance) to convert it into a useful voltage or current to be further amplified to a level that will be useful for connecting it to downstream equipment. That's why these mics use high impedance devices like FET's, vacuum tubes (valves) or MOSFET op amp circuitry as the coupling stage from the capsule to the rest of the mic's amplifier circuitry.
 
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Good analogy, crazydoc. I started typing in some explanations about charge and impedance but ended up deleting it as I figured my explanation would become to difficult to follow -- but you hit the nail spot on, with an easy to understand analogy!


-- Per.
 
Grungegod67... hopefully that helps answer your question? Anyway, good luck and best wishes. :) Don
 
It shouldn't be, but I think one of the biggest factors in many consumers' comparison between large and small diaphragm mic's is the visual impression. And the merchandisers play that up to the hilt. A large diaphragm mic with the typical large casing, in a large complex looking suspension, has a lot of attraction to mic users. I mean, it's GOT TO sound bigger and warmer, doesn't it? It's like the scene in the movie Men in Black where one guy gets the huge powerful looking space gun out of the arsenal and the other guy is given the tiny little 2 inch long gun. When he fires the tiny thing though it knocks him over and blows up a truck.

So probably all our talk about sonic and electrical characteristics is going to met with a blank look by the stereotypical consumer, unless small diaphragm mic's start to be manufactured more often in large casings!

Tim
 
Timothy Lawler said:
It shouldn't be, but I think one of the biggest factors in many consumers' comparison between large and small diaphragm mic's is the visual impression.
You got that right - look at the MXL 990, Samson CO1 and the AT 3035 and 2020 just to name a few. Made to look like LDC's with that big ole side address case, but a lil' ole 16 to 20mm capsule inside. Marketing BS.
 
crazydoc said:
You got that right - look at the MXL 990, Samson CO1 and the AT 3035 and 2020 just to name a few. Made to look like LDC's with that big ole side address case, but a lil' ole 16 to 20mm capsule inside. Marketing BS.
Not completely BS. Using a large housing creates a resonant chamber which can add some upper mids to the sound of the microphone. Remember, the chamber around the capsule also contributes to the overall sound.
 
PhilGood said:
Do you mean proximity effect? Off axis would pick up more ambient signals, high and low. Please clarify what effect the off axis rejection would have, so I know.

Yes, I meant proximity, but let's start from the beginning.
Any condenser capsule can be built whether with single or double diaphragm (aka Braunmuel--Weber configuration). While both have their own pros and cons, SDC usually built as a single, and LDC as a double diaphragm. As I have already mentioned, there are exceptions. For example, Sony and Audio Technica LD capsules are built as single diaphragm. Also, I have some SD 7mm double diaphragms.
Instead of me typing forever about difference in their acoustical properties it is much better to go to Shure site. Scroll down and make sure to read all the papers:

http://www.shure.com/booklets/dual_diaphragm_page1.html

I just meant earlier that LDCs tend to handle lows better, in the same as a large diaphram dynamic.

IMO, it is a misconception. It really depends on construction and design parameters.

A tube has a nice built-in distortion that adds a bit of extra colour. On the other hand, a FET is cleaner

Per, I tend to disagree here, as I think it is very broad generalization. The tube circuit can be designed as a clean one, and FET as to add color. It might actually happen indirectly, by use of transformer. What I mean is generally, because tubes have much higher impedance, the transformers have much higher ratio (about 1:10), and it is much harder to design and build really clean sounding one. Not only winding techniques will affect the result, but also choice of transformer's core. On the other hand 1:2 trafo for SS circuit is relatively easy to build, and it has much less influence on overall sound, compare to tube one.
Some Neumann FET circuits use 1:10 transformers, and IMO, are very colored.
 
Marik said:
Per, I tend to disagree here, as I think it is very broad generalization. The tube circuit can be designed as a clean one, and FET as to add color. It might actually happen indirectly, by use of transformer. What I mean is generally, because tubes have much higher impedance, the transformers have much higher ratio (about 1:10), and it is much harder to design and build really clean sounding one. Not only winding techniques will affect the result, but also choice of transformer's core. On the other hand 1:2 trafo for SS circuit is relatively easy to build, and it has much less influence on overall sound, compare to tube one.
Some Neumann FET circuits use 1:10 transformers, and IMO, are very colored.

Yes, I made another simplification. And I agree -- the transformer (which was basically there in the first place as a necessity to ensure a balanced output and for isolation) also adds a great deal to the sound, when present.

However, it looks to me that today, the main reason for chosing a tube design vs a SS one seems to be because it is easier to get the "toob" sound with a tube -- and vice versa; to get a cleaner sound using a FET (or opamp). This being so, even if the sound is caused indirectly by other (needed) elements in the chain and not always by the active element.

If I read your comment correctly, this is also what you hint at, but at the same time correctly pointing out that the other option may also be possible, and indeed is so for some famous German mics ;-)


Luckily, starved plate designs seems less common in tube mics than in preamps, so I guess most are real tube amps, and the distortion is not too pronounced, or maybe not even designed to be there.

And a good transformer would probably achieve a similar effect of smoothing the sound slightly or adding a bit of high-end shimmer, even in a FET design.


Anyway, good comment and a valid point.


-- Per.
 
Marik said:
For example, Sony and Audio Technica LD capsules are built as single diaphragm.

I have a Sony C-38 and noticed it goes omni by closing the vents in the backplate.

I have abandoned my opinion about LDCs and low end thanks to Harvey.
 
PhilGood said:
I have a Sony C-38 and noticed it goes omni by closing the vents in the backplate.

I have abandoned my opinion about LDCs and low end thanks to Harvey.

This is also why mics sound like shit and feedback onstage when someone does the MTV mic-cupping "I look cool" thing.
 
Han said:
What do you think the vents are for?

I know that's what makes an omni into a cardiod. I just like that Sony used it in an ingenius way instead of dual diaphrams. Before someone else jumps on me, I'm also aware dual diaphrams allows for figure 8 too.

Sheez...
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Not completely BS. Using a large housing creates a resonant chamber which can add some upper mids to the sound of the microphone. Remember, the chamber around the capsule also contributes to the overall sound.
I had originally added that the grille and housing affected the sound of the mic, but since I didn't want to expose my ignorance about how they affected it, I deleted that part of the post. Thanks for pointing it out, Harvey. :)

Maybe that's why the 603 and the 990 sound different - an over abundance of high mids in the 990, which may be why a number of folks don't like the 990. Then again, as always it depends on the sound source, and the 990 may be just what the doctor ordered for some.
 
PhilGood said:
I know that's what makes an omni into a cardiod. I just like that Sony used it in an ingenius way instead of dual diaphrams. Before someone else jumps on me, I'm also aware dual diaphrams allows for figure 8 too.

Sheez...

Phil, I guess it's about time you read Harvey's big thread bro!

Peace, Han
 
crazydoc said:
Maybe that's why the 603 and the 990 sound different - an over abundance of high mids in the 990, which may be why a number of folks don't like the 990. Then again, as always it depends on the sound source, and the 990 may be just what the doctor ordered for some.

No doubt the grill is of a big influence here. However, different style of mount hardware and use of brass ring in 990 are no less important. Even the plastic tapered center contact housing in 603 makes significant difference.

I know that's what makes an omni into a cardiod. I just like that Sony used it in an ingenius way instead of dual diaphrams. Before someone else jumps on me, I'm also aware dual diaphrams allows for figure 8 too.

Schoeps multipattern MK6 capsule is a single diaphragm... but it allows fig 8 too ;)
 
Han said:
Phil, I guess it's about time you read Harvey's big thread bro!

Peace, Han

Han, if it will get you off my ass, I'd read anything!
 
Han said:
Yeah, thanks for the kudos though.

Kudos?..Kudos??

You make me feel an inch tall and I'm suppose to give you Kudos for doing it???
 
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