Difference between good/bad preamps

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Diffusion

Future Astrophysicist
I just have a simple question out of curiousity... currently I am using a cheap Behringer MIC200 "tube" preamp i bought for $60, but I'm looking to upgrade to a DMP3 and an Electro-Harmonix 12ay7 preamp... i was just wondering how much difference these better preamps will make? What exactly will sound different? I do rap music, and remember I am still reasonably inexperienced using different equipment... the mic200 is the only preamp i have used... im asking because they say that different preamps can affect the sound dramatically, but is it really enough that inexperienced people will be able to tell the difference?
also, what will be the difference between my MIC200 and somethin like an Avalon 737 (Which I hope to have sometime in the future)?
 
The difference between good and bad preamps is about $700.
The difference between your Behringer and the avalon will be night and day. The avalon will be so much more open and clear and have better lows.

I haven't heard the DMP3 of the electro hamonix but people seem to be impressed with the DMP3.

Also, don't fall for the tube preamp thing. Quality tube preamps are more expensive to build than quality solid state. Most quality SS preamps are about $700 per channel at the low end. The other thing is that most of the preamps that the big boys rave about (Neve, API, Trident, etc...) are solid state.
 
Save your money friend.

A variety of preamps is a luxury of the experienced, and RICH! ;) Really, the differences aren't nearly as startling as many make them out to be.

Yes, I would much rather have a Neve than a Behringer, but I won't let "only" having a Behringer stop me from make great sounding recordings, because it WON'T!!!

If you are looking for ways to really change up the sound is major ways, invest in different mics. THEY will offer you a variety of different sounds via the same preamp!

Here is a live recording, using nothing more than old Mackie preamps.


This is an excellent sounding recording, and used very marginal preamps. A rack full of DMP would have made little difference in the outcome. Nor would a rack full of Neve's
 
Ford Van said:
A variety of preamps is a luxury of the experienced, and RICH! ;) Really, the differences aren't nearly as startling as many make them out to be.
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Oh yeah? Put a 57 thru a Behringer (or Mackie, or M-Audio, or Presonus) on a guitar cab alongside a 57 thru a Great River or Phoenix on that same cab and see if you still think that, Ed.... :cool:

However, I will agree with you that only having poor/mediocre pres shouldn't stop a skilled engineer from getting good results anyways....
 
so i should be fine with say... a DMP3 or E-H 12ay7?
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Oh yeah? Put a 57 thru a Behringer (or Mackie, or M-Audio, or Presonus) on a guitar cab alongside a 57 thru a Great River or Phoenix on that same cab and see if you still think that, Ed.... :cool:

However, I will agree with you that only having poor/mediocre pres shouldn't stop a skilled engineer from getting good results anyways....
Click to expand...

I never said there wouldn't be a difference, just that the difference isn't startling. The difference isn't ANYWHERE as severe as comparing a SM 57 to a 421, or a 4050 in front of the cabinet!

And Bruce, you would have been better off using something a bit more dynamic and with a wider frequency range than a guitar! :rolleyes:
 
Ford Van said:
Here is a live recording, using nothing more than old Mackie preamps.


This is an excellent sounding recording, and used very marginal preamps. A rack full of DMP would have made little difference in the outcome. Nor would a rack full of Neve's
Click to expand...

You can't really use live recordings for comparing fidelity. I would pick Mackie over Behringer anyday. Behringer pre's make Mackies sound like Neves.
 
Preamps make a much bigger difference than certain people on here like to admit. It may not be night and day when you just cue one up, but in the mix they can make a pretty major difference. I would never minimize the importance of mics, but siganl chain throughout is what is really the most important. What good is a top shelf mic if your preamp just completely steps on it and changes it? The same could be said for converters and monitors. In the end it's all about balance.

If preamps did not make a difference, I am sure that the big boys would not be out there buying many thousands of dollars in preamps. Personally, I notice a big difference when switching between preamps. In fact, often times it can be like switching mics once you get to the mix process. Especially if you are using any of the real cheap stuff.
 
Ford Van said:
I never said there wouldn't be a difference, just that the difference isn't startling.
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I find the difference between a 57 thru a Behringer and a 57 thru a Great River IS quite significant..... so much so that the 57 thru the GR sounds like an entirely different mic altogether! :cool:
 
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I think on a song that has 40 tracks you hear a sizeable diff. between the expensive and non-expensive pres.

The fullness of the bottom and smooth top of a neve or a chandler...
There isnt a ghetto pre on earth thatll replace that.
Especially times 30 or 40!

On another note, i hate these "shootout" threads where they compare one pre to another with only 1 sound source.

THATS why people who dont know shit in the first place go raving about how pres dont make a difference.

Its just an easy way to cop out>>>>Denial.

/Rant
 
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xfinsterx said:
I think on a song that has 40 tracks you hear a sizeable diff. between the expensive and non-expensive pres.

The fullness of the bottom and smooth top of a neve or a chandler...
There isnt a ghetto pre on earth thatll replace that.
Especially times 30 or 40!

On another note, i hate these "shootout" threads where they compare one pre to another with only 1 sound source.

THATS why people people who dont know shit in the first place go raving about how pres dont make a difference.

Its just an easy way to cop out>>>>Denial.

/Rant
Click to expand...

Are you aiming that at somebody?
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
I find the difference between a 57 thru a Behringer and a 57 thru a Great River IS quite significant..... so much so that the 57 thru the GR sounds like an entirely different mic altogether! :cool:
Click to expand...

Really? So you own a Behringer pre?
 
Ford Van said:
Are you aiming that at somebody?
Click to expand...

Not at you if thats what you mean Ed.
Im talking about the newbie who walks in here, hears a shootout, then says
"oh what....pre's? they dont mean shit"

Yes. You can get a good recording with skills alone.
But lets not be ludicrous and say great pre's dont matter.
 
Who said that? :D I want to read it now, im interested! :D

xfinsterx said:
Not at you if thats what you mean Ed.
Im talking about the newbie who walks in here, hears a shootout, then says
"oh what....pre's? they dont mean shit"

Yes. You can get a good recording with skills alone.
But lets not be ludicrous and say great pre's dont matter.
Click to expand...
 
Well, they matter to the point of you usually NEED them to boost the mic level signal! ;)

After that, they make a FAR less difference than:

1 - How well the person plays their instrument, and how good that instrument sounds!
2 - How the instrument was mic'ed.
3 - What the instrument was mic'ed with.

After that, it is just electronics, and the electronics tend to NOT difference anywhere as much as the big three above.

Too often, the "quality" of cheaper electronics is blamed for bad sound, when the reality is, the one of the above is the main cuprit. The reason I am so adamant about most guys around here worrying about preamps is because most here should really be concentrating on learning how to compensate in the MAJOR ways sound can be altered.

I have ran a SM 57 thru most every kind of popular preamp out there! From the cheap to insanely expensive. I have done my own preamp shoot-offs.

Did you know that when I mic up a electric guitar, and run it thru a Focusrite Red 8, a Drawmer 1960, and a ART Pro, 10 out of 10 times the client prefers the sound of the ART? So do I! :) Certainly NOT because the client likes it, but rather, because it just has a sound that works well! I have live recordings galore using cheap ol' Mackie pre's. Nothing wrong with the sound at all! Maybe not quite the sound I would always want, but serviceable, and again, I don't let the pre stop from from achieving a good recording.

The moral? Simply, yes, preamps make a difference, but not always a good one. ;) And, it is QUITE possible to do excellent sounding recordings using more "budget" preamps. If you have great source sounds, have spent some time with mic placement, and used the right mic for the purpose, the difference in pre's will be slight.

It would be nice if there were more questions around here about how to improve source sounds. Different ways to approach micing something. Specific mics for specific tasks WITH audio examples.

On this glorious Christmas day, I hope to bring HOPE to the masses that you don't have to try to buy your way into great sound. You need only to try, try, try again with what you got. http://www.betteroffdad.com . Go listen to these guys mp3's. All the acoustic guitars and vocals are recorded with a AKG C 3000 via a DMP preamp. Most of the other tracks are contributed from friends (via another BBS) from around the world using mostly low "quality" preamps. This is some excellent sounding productions for the most part. Indeed, they can be improved, but, not by staggering amounts.

It is FAR more about learning how to use your tools than what tools you are using. Anybody that uses the excuse that their preamp is making or breaking their productions is the one in denial!

;)
 
Ford Van said:
After that, they make a FAR less difference than:

1 - How well the person plays their instrument, and how good that instrument sounds!
2 - How the instrument was mic'ed.
3 - What the instrument was mic'ed with.

After that, it is just electronics, and the electronics tend to NOT difference anywhere as much as the big three above.
Click to expand...

This is a common argument you see around here fairly frequently. But I think it really misses the big picture.

The reason is, you can't say that any part of the chain or recording process is less important than another IF you are creating recordings that are intended to be non-compromised in any way. A great performance deserves everything be done right to record it, and using less than stellar gear at any step of the way simply means that the recording is not as good as it could have been. It *does not* mean that those other steps of the chain were less important.

We get so used to making compromises and justifying them that it becomes easy to say the mic matters more than the preamp, or the preamp is more important than the converter, etc. When in fact, every part of the recording process, from the person playing or singing to the final master, is *equally* important.

As far as the difference between a cheap preamp and a top quality one, the difference is readily ond obviously apparent. It's not even close. But as has been stated in another thread, the difference between a mid-level preamp and a top level preamp is closer. In those cases we are listening for really fine details. Between the cheapies and the high end the differences are glaring.

Also worth noting is that a truly great preamp will make practically any mic sound *way* better. Not different, but finally living up to its full potential.
 
The "big picture" is simply, did you get it recorded, and do people enjoy it?

;)

I have heard before and after of many guys around these BBS's who bought classA pre's. Guess what? All other things being equal, their productions STILL sound like poo poo, regardless that they have the nice high dollar preamp now. They just have a bit more "shimmer" on their crap sounding track.

It is an amazing thing to share a good micing trick, and listen to how people really improve their recordings because of THAT.

So, just for the sake of clarifying stuff, list what is "low grade" and "mid grade" preamps, and WHY they are so.

I should ask for some "high grade" stuff too! Let me tell you though, I have ran audio thru a few "high end" pre's that just sounded marginal to the extreme!

Often times, I think it is more the impendence match between mic and preamp that makes more of the differences that you hear than the actual type of preamp it is. Try messing with that a bit and comparing. I can think of some noise floor issues, but generally speaking, the noise floor is mostly an issue when audio ISN'T present than when it is! With our brave new DAW world, those silence parts are never played thru the master bus anyway, so no biggie.

The big copout to good audio is "my gear isn't good enough".
 
In all honesty, I thought that recording you linked to earlier *would* have been better if it had been recorded through a rack of Neve's. It sounds a bit two dimensional and small to me. Maybe that's the mp3 though, I'd have to hear the original WAV to get a better idea of the sound. I also agree with TexRoadkill that live recordings aren't the best examples to use.

If you are used to old Mackie preamps, then they will sound fine. But if your ears have gotten used to better gear, then it's harder to be satisfied with the lesser stuff anymore. It's like wine. Once you start drinking more expensive wine you get permanently ruined, it's tough to go back to the cheap stuff.

I did enjoy the music and the band, so if you feel that's all that matters, then the recording was a success.
 
Mackie Preamps

So now i know Mackie preamps arent the best...Ive got a Mackie VLZ mixer -- fairly new with the XDR preamps. With all this preamp talk im worried im missing out on quality... Someone please tell me im not using crappy gear. :eek: I know there is better stuff out there, but would it really make THAT MUCH of a difference??? I do hip hop/RnB vocals with it BTW.
 
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