Did Your Latency Ever Improve When You Upgraded?

Chris Long

Chris Long

New member
Hi All
I've been wrestling with an annoyingly large latency with my new Audiophile card (34ms) and I'm wondering something. I am running an old version of Sonar--v.1, I believe. I have also been testing the latency with Pro Audio 9. They both come up with the same numbers--34ms, or thereabouts. If I adjust things to get a lower latency, I get pops and clicks.

I'm wondering whether anyone had a similar problem that was solved, or improved, by upgrading to a newer version of Sonar. My hardware isn't bad at all (or so I thought): ASUS P4PE board with Pentium 4 @2.4, 1 gig RAM, 2 fast hard drives with plenty of room, etc. I was hoping the Audiophile would bring my latency down to something like 11ms...as it is, it's about the same as my onboard sound was! Not fair! :mad:

So now I begin to wonder if maybe the high latency is a function of the older software. Any ideas? Is this possible? Has anyone gotten better latencies when upgrading from Sonar 1 to 2 or 3 using the same hardware?

Thanks
Chris
 
First off - anyone remember if Sonar 1.xx supported WDM drivers?

Chris - have a look in OPTIONS-AUDIO and see if you have an option to change the driver type from being MME and make it instead WDM.

Also what operating system are you using?

Windows 2000 and XP allow use of these quicker WDM drivers, older OS's do not.

WDM (or ASIO but that wasn't in Sonar until 2.2) = Fast and good.
MME = Old, slow and bad.

:) Q.
 
Yeah, these are WDM drivers. There's no option to switch from MME--the default is WDM in Sonar 1. And you're right, no ASIO in my version.

And I'm using Win XP Pro.

With that combination and enough decent hardware (which I already have) I had expected a better result than 34ms. It's nearly impossible to deal with, as far as tracking goes. The delay is debilitating...

So the thought is that it might be the same result if I were to go up to Sonar 3 (or even 2.2ish, like Home Studio Version 2)? The results with the newer code and the ASIO support would be the same?
 
That does seem a little high, did you check for bios upgrades? They sometimes upgrade those suckers for better throughput. I was down around 5.8 msec with a P4 2.26 and 768 ram. This was using Sonar 3PE but I can't remember what I was getting under the older version. Also check for chipset driver upgrades at your Motherboard site.
 
Did you check your settings in the soundcards software/Delta control panel/Hardware settings/Dma buffer size?
 
If you reduce the buffer size in the Delta panel,you will need to run the wave profiler in Sonar if it does'nt do so automatically.
I've got a 2.4 and can get down to 1.5ms on the start of a project.I run mostly at 2.9ms with soft synths and plug ins going no problem.
 
I've done all of those things, guys, thanks. I've been in and out of the Delta Control Panel so many times in the past few days it's not funny. I think I run the Wave Profiler in my sleep now, too

The lowest I can set the DMA buffer setting is 1536 samples--that's the lowest it will go that I won't get pops and clicks on playback. I've tried all the settings in there--from the highest to the lowest, including all the settings on 5 different versions of the Control Panel, since they give you a new one with each driver set. And I've used these driver sets: .0026, .0027, .0036, .0042, and the latest; I think it was .0047. Hard to keep track--I just know that I've tried them all, and the best is the .0027 set. That one at least lets me get down to 34ms, the others won't even do that...

My mobo BIOS is the latest. I've checked and rechecked the DMA settings on my hard drives. I've unistalled the Intel Accelerator, and the Intel Chipset Software Utility, as well.

I've reinstalled the card a bunch of times, and it is not sharing an IRQ. It has its own now.

5.8ms seems like a dream...2.9ms like winning the lottery. I'd be happy with 11, or even 17 at this point.

It's pretty much unusable.
Very depressing.
Chris
 
An update...I downloaded a trial version of Sonar 3 to see if that code might work better with this whole thing. I uninstalled the .0027 drivers, put in the latest ones (.0046) and installed the trial S3. No difference. Still have the popping and clicking, relieved only when I adjust the buffers to an unacceptable level.

Not sure if it's a completely fair test (since it was a trial version, and not the whole deal), but it seems to answer my original quesion: Would upgrading to a newer version help?

In my case, it hasn't.

Chris
 
Upgrading won't help.
Your problem does'nt seem to be Sonar related,rather hardware or optimising problem IMHO.

Does your soundcard have a dedicated IRQ?
Any programs,sounds,etc running in the background?
Any other audio drivers/cards running concurrently with the audiophile?
 
Another possibilty could be a bad hard drive,you could put a temporary audio file on the system drive and eliminate that possibilty by bypassing the audio drive.
 
Also, what size is your swapfile in windows? Is it corrupt?

Are you running across multiple drives one of which is slower than the rest?
 
Hi guys
1. Does your soundcard have a dedicated IRQ? Yes.

2. Any programs,sounds,etc running in the background? No. I have removed all but the barest of essentials, and it made no difference.

3. Any other audio drivers/cards running concurrently with the audiophile? No. Onboard sound was deleted/disabled in both BIOS and XP Device Manager (it's uninstalled, really)

4. Another possibilty...a bad hard drive...put a temporary audio file on the system drive... I did just that. I've had it on both drives at different times while trying to fix this. Neither made a difference.

5. Also, what size is your swapfile in windows? Is it corrupt? I've had it set at "No Pagefile", "2 min/2 max", and presently at "2 min/1536 max", which was suggested at both MS and Cakewalk. I also have deleted the pagefile, defragged the drive, and reinstated it. Doesn't make a difference--I do have a gig of ram, too.

6. Are you running across multiple drives one of which is slower than the rest? Yes, I am on two drives--one "regular" IDE (system) and one SATA(audio files). And one (the system drive) might be slower than the audio drive. It's hard to say. Both are 7200. But I started with both System and Audio data on the same drive. There's been no performance difference between the different configs.

I've also followed Cakewalk's tutorial on editing the AUD.INI file. Needless to say, it made no difference (sounding like the proverbial broken record)

I did everything that applied at the XP Audio tweaking site that was recommended here earlier. Good stuff, but it didn't do the trick.

I dropped my video performance to the floor, too--it can't get it any more basic.

I'm really running out of things to do, it seems. It's so strange, driving me nuts. What's funny (in a cruel sort of way) is that I do video editing all the time with no problem. I think of that as more intensive than plain audio...

Any more ideas are really appreciated. Even plain old encouragement!

Thanks
Chris
 
What's funny (in a cruel sort of way) is that I do video editing all the time with no problem. I think of that as more intensive than plain audio...
Click to expand...
That's a good place to start.Maybe you have resources or settings relative to graphics that are'nt Sonar friendly.
 
Man, you've covered everything. The only way you are going to get lower is possibly upgrading. No guarantee though.

Ok, one more thing, what is the driver buffer setting in Sonar. Also the I/O buffer setting. Is write caching on?

That's about the end of the line for me.
 
acidrock said:
Maybe you have resources or settings relative to graphics that are'nt Sonar friendly.
Click to expand...

It might be, I suppose--but I'm not sure what they might be. I've already dumbed down the video/graphics side as far as it'll go. And when I installed Premiere Pro and some other video apps, I didn't really do anything special--just installed and away I went! I thought the new sound card would be even simpler than that...


Middleman said:
Ok, one more thing, what is the driver buffer setting in Sonar. Also the I/O buffer setting. Is write caching on?
Click to expand...

The buffer settings have been all over the place as I've experimented. From 256 up to 1536, where the sound stabilizes. And I've tried a few different setting for the I/O buffer, too. Was 64, then all the way up to 256 (Cakewalk suggested that one at some point) and everything in between. All of them were tried in different combinations, trying to be very systematic. Write caching is off, but I did try it on a few times just for the heck of it. At this point, a fella starts to click just about anything in hopes that it'll be the magic button.

I can't tell you how grateful I am for the repsonse I've gotten from all of you. Even hearing Middleman saying that he's at the end of the line is encouraging: it kind of lets me know that maybe I haven't been missing something: maybe it's beyond my control to get this to work well in my system.

I suppose it's time to think of selling the thing and trying a different card, maybe the new E-mu 0404; or upgrading to another audio app, or a new motherboard and processor. Hard to know which way to turn, especially when money is tight.

Thanks again, everyone. :)
Chris
 
Low latency is not always necessary. I just picked up a Lynx card and my latency is higher than with the Audiophile and is driver related. I can work around the latency issue; which is only a problem when listening and recording at the same time. There are ways you can use external monitoring of your ingoing source vs trying to listen to the ingoing source through Sonar.

I would quit focusing on matching others latency and enjoy making some music. It's irritating I know but some times the computer wins.
 
Good job QWERTY, that looks as good as anything else. The SATA timing is a new one to me.

Play with those timers and let us know what happens.
 
I had just started to look at the SATA posts over there when I had to knock off for the night. Great minds think alike!

I'm a little skeptical (it's well-earned at this point, you understand) since at various times I've had Sonar configured to use just the single IDE, bypassing my SATA drive entirely--but it could be that the SATA drive is trouble whether it's being used or not. I'm going to dig deeply into this and see what transpires. Let you know. Need some coffee first...

It would be a great thing if this angle pans out. July the 4th would become my own personal Independance Day From the Tyranny of Pops and Clicks!

Thanks--
Chris
 
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