decent tube preamp

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daveblue222

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looking for one to go with my firestudio project. been

looked at the presonus tube pre which seems pretty sweet and not to pricey.

alos what would be the best way to connect it sen the signal to my interface? with an xlr going to an xlr input on my firestudio? or send signal via a jack?

got about £150-200

cheers :)
 
I went on a tube-pre frenzy and picked up a few including the Presonus. I'm still figuring out what's good for what, but here's what I found FWIW:

Presonus Tube Pre: easy to pick one up cheap. It seems to stay on the subtle side with the color (added tube drive, because that's what these do). Good for improving a scratchy cheap mic. Solid extras like pad and hi-pass. Balanced XLR out, but no 1/4" balanced out :confused: A great starting point.

Studio Projects VTB-1: My favorite for direct bass. Keep it mostly SS and a little tube (about 9 o'clock on the mix knob). Can really capture a clean, round tone that hangs together. It can also be fuzzy if you dial in too much tube (which can be useful, too). Good for spicing up a thin voice. And lots of features including the regulars plus a polarity switch and 2 resistance settings(!) for whenever you want to break out that Royer R-121. Completely balanced in and out.

ART TubeFire: this is an 8 channel firewire interface that can also be used as 8 stand-alone preamps. Like all of these, the tube can be dialed in to taste, and that taste is tasty enough to make it my main tracking ins. The instrument in is great for guitar, as it doesn't choke the hiZ signal, and it seems to be easier to adjust its "tubyness" (tubeeness?), i.e. it's easier than the others to hear how hard the signal slams the tube and adjust what's happening to your signal.

This is more than it sounds like you want, though.

I always try to use TRS balanced 1/4" out into a line-level balanced in. You can go XLR out, but chances are you're just heading back into another pre, which you shouldn't need at that point.

If you're looking for tube sound for specific things, you might look at tube condensers. My favorite vocal set up right now is a Sputnik into a plain ol' solid state Firebox.
 
thanks for the recommendations mate. the studio projects looks like a great bit of kit. will have a look at more review etc...

why is it best to send my signal to my recording interface by jack and not xlr into a pre-amp on the interface. is it because one pre-amp going into another will mess with original signal too much?

will definitely check out some tube condensers as well

cheers
 
"Freaking cheap" and "tube" in the same sentence almost invariably leads to "crap" in the next.

You're looking at "toob" preamps that probably wouldn't sound any different if you removed the tube and jumped the connections with paper clips. Garbage.

Sorry - Just calling 'em as I see (hear) 'em...

There's really only one preamp I can think of off the top of my head in your price range that I'd even consider "decent" -- M-Audio DMP3.

Cheesy "toob" stuff in that price range is rarely better than junk.
 
dude i am only looking to broaden my knowledge in home recording. im sure a preamp around that price (maybe a bit more) will sound better than the pre's on my interface, maybe not by much (but a little..)

of course, something this cheap would sound shite when used with high end gear and thus would be pointless. but as im only using budget gear everything is realtive to my setup. I only want to tinker about with stuff and find out how it all works.
 
Massive Master said:
"Freaking cheap" and "tube" in the same sentence almost invariably leads to "crap" in the next.

You're looking at "toob" preamps that probably wouldn't sound any different if you removed the tube and jumped the connections with paper clips. Garbage.

Sorry - Just calling 'em as I see (hear) 'em...
Click to expand...

Okay. Well, now we know who has the big boy toys. Cheap junk is relative when you don't have $1K/channel. I say explore what's out there. We all end up with our "go-to" pile of paper clips.
 
Y'all may have missed MM's point. It's not that all cheap gear sucks, nor is he trying to impress you with his cool gear. What I think he's saying is that the best available cheap preamps on the market are solid state, not tube based. The two related corollaries of that are:

1. Sticking a small tube in the front end of a solid state preamp does not make it a tube preamp. It just adds noise and distortion, which is more of a problem than a benefit. It's not about the damned tube. A good solid state preamp is better than a bad preamp with a tube in it. Cheap preamps with tubes waste a bunch of money on a tube and tube circuit so they can tell you it has a tube (which of course, = warmth). This is marketing hype, not audio engineering.

2. In short, if you don't want to spend $1000 per channel on a preamp, buy a solid state preamp. You will get a better preamp. MM recommends M-Audio DMP-3 because it is a cheap preamp that doesn't totally suck. The real point is that believing the marketing bullshit that a vacuum tube is going to do something for you distracts you from determining what the best preamp you can buy is, on any given budget.

For the record, some of the finest preamps in the world are powered by tubes. Some of the finest preamps in the world are solid state. There are transparent and colored versions of both types. There is no tube magic, except the ability to make money for people who sell tubes.-Richie
 
I'm not saying there isn't good cheap gear (as a matter of fact, I made a specific recommendation in his price range for a rather decent and freakishly inexpensive preamp).

I'm saying that a lot of 'cheap' gear is cheap for a reason. The Presonus Tube Pre for example - Been there, heard that - Wouldn't give one to my competition. The DMP3 - Quite nice. No real amount of headroom (and I wouldn't expect anything different in that price range), but a very solid piece if you don't try to take it out of its comfort zone.

I'm not saying there isn't reasonably cheap *tube* gear out there either - But many (okay, I'll say it - "less seasoned") engineers are led by marketing hype more than their own ears. "Tube Warmth" and all this marketing garbage (as if tubes have ANYTHING to do with "warm" sound), channel strips with Mackie's rejected componentry... Contrast that with a simple, yet good quality preamp like the DMP3 and there really isn't much of a comparison.

You want a "warm" sounding preamp for peanuts? Golden Age Pre73. It really does have a 1073-ish sound (and of course, like almost every preamp known for a 'warm' tone, has no tubes).

(EDIT) Thanks, Richard - Spot on. Have a cold one on me - :drunk:
 
im sure a preamp around that price (maybe a bit more) will sound better than the pre's on my interface, maybe not by much (but a little..)
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I wouldn't bank on it, economies of scale and all that. It's a lot cheaper to add a pre to an audio interface than build and sell a standalone pre. but you won't know for sure if you don't try.
Make sure that the store you buy from has a good return policy so once you get over the intial placebo effect (that comes free with all newly purchased gear :) ) wears off you can get your money back if you find it's really not doing anything for you that you couldn't already get from your audio interface.

If it's better then hooray
 
good points all around, RM and MM. I just assumed daveBlue knew that was the case in the Presonus, et al price range. It is, BTW. You get mostly color and distortion. Sprinkle in when needed. But not real tube gain. That's why I mentioned checking out tube condensers, too.
 
But why tube?

Again - I'm not against quality (QUALITY) tube gear. But don't throw your $$$ away on the marketing hype. There are plenty (and I mean PLENTY) of horrible tube mics out there also...
 
Some solid advice going on here.

The term "tube" seems to add a sense of greatness to any product. The tone doesn't always follow. There are so many factors involved with a piece of electronic equipment that effects its tone.
For example, I have several tube amps. Some have the same tubes, yet vary drastically in tone and volume. I have a Johnson 25 watt with 2 EL84's. I can stand next to it at 10. Go to the Hughes & Kettner with 2 EL 84's and it will rip your head off at 7.
Preamps can be dangerous. They can destroy the beauty of a perfectly good mic and make a hunk of junk sound great depending on the combination.
Add in the listeners view of a great sound and the complicated signal path (mic to interface to preamp to computer to sound card to plug ins to speakers) and things are not so simple.

Moral. Read all you can here on HR. Have several mics, preamps, amps, plug ins, and just trust your ears, and most of all have fun experimenting.
Even the best engineers have to try twenty different things to get it right!
 
Side-noting on that -- Guitar amps are another story. I love tube guitar amps because of the way that tubes can distort.

For most everything else, I avoid tubes like they were overly-hot, picky, maintenance-heavy, fragile, vacuum-sealed glass vessels of inconsistent quality and life expectancy.

Oh - wait...

Seriously though - No that we've established how picky I am about my gear, maybe count how many tube units I have in the racks.

If you're not familiar with the nameplates, I'll put the answer out there:

One. The Variable-Mu compressor. Which, by *name* and by design, *must* rely on tube circuitry.

But you can bet two things -- (1) If I thought tube this or tube that would be superior, that's what I'd be using. No question, end of story. (2) If there was a solid-state compressor that could do what the Vari-Mu does, well, I'd already have it. But I'd also drop the Vari-Mu (nothing personal if EveAnna sees this thread - We can still go riding some time, right?).

The Variable-Mu compressor (as noted by it's name) relies on the tubes. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a "Variable-Mu" compressor. And although it's not an "everyday" piece here, there is no substitute.

But for most mics, preamps, EQ's, etc., it's another story. Quality tube gear is costly to design and construct. And maintain. And just because it has tubes in it doesn't make it superior to its solid-state counterparts. In many cases, it's just the opposite.

Another famous tube nameplate? The Millennia NSEQ2 equalizer. But what's the first thing that most people go out and do once they get one?

They rip out the tubes and put the Forsell board in the unit (thus rendering it pure solid-state).

And again - I don't want to seem "anti-tube" -- I love Manley, TubeTech, a couple Avalon pieces are pretty decent - But I don't care for "crappy tubes just for the sake of having tubes in the box" gear. That's hype. All sizzle (no pun intended), no steak.
 
Again, the "tube" preamps in this range are coloring tools. If money is prioritizing your purchases, I'd concentrate on getting your signal path right. I'm by no means a transparency purist, but shoot toward that + accuracy at first. In the end you'll never think it a waste of time or $$$.

When you're satisfied you have that, try hooking up though all sorts of other stuff. I recommend a toaster filled with cheese whiz (with NOS tubez & mod'ed trannys, of course). Have fun, and Dave, let me know if you want some sound clips of the pres I mentioned. I'll be happy to throw some clips up.
 
You know, I own a Presonus Bluetube DSP pre, and use it with a Firepod.

It's not a BAD preamp, or at least, I seem to get better results with it than without it, but almost without exeption I use it with the "tube gain" off, bypassing the tube, and a year or two down the road I wish I'd gotten something else. The Presonus Firepod pres are tolerable enough, and augmenting them with another Presonus pre, in retrospect, probably doesn't give me that much more in the way of "color" options. And I've heard a lot of good about that M-Audio pre since.

I can't really drop $500 on another pre right now, but I do want to upgrade to something better at some point. I'll probably continue to use the presonus even then, at least until I get to the point where I have 8 channels of "good" preamps on my hands.

Look at it this way, though - isn't the point of a good preamp to capture a sound with as much clarity and transient response as possible? especially on the budget end, how does adding a vacuum tube, known for smoothing out transients somewhat, really help you there? I feel like if you want to fuck up a sound there are plenty of software options for that - amp sims, tape sims, compression plugins, you name it - and for a guy (like me) just beginning to build a collection of pres, the top priority should be getting ones as transparent as possible.

Wish I'd thought of it like that a couple years back when I bought the thing. :p
 
Massive Master said:
There's really only one preamp I can think of off the top of my head in your price range that I'd even consider "decent" -- M-Audio DMP3.
Click to expand...

That's really only $159?

Fuck, man. I should probably just buy one, shouldn't I? :D
 
Massive Master said:
"Freaking cheap" and "tube" in the same sentence almost invariably leads to "crap" in the next.

You're looking at "toob" preamps that probably wouldn't sound any different if you removed the tube and jumped the connections with paper clips. Garbage.

Sorry - Just calling 'em as I see (hear) 'em...

There's really only one preamp I can think of off the top of my head in your price range that I'd even consider "decent" -- M-Audio DMP3.

Cheesy "toob" stuff in that price range is rarely better than junk.
Click to expand...
Ive posted the same info many times here...I think the best service we can do here is help people sort through all the marketing hype so they dont buy into it like some of us did.

My personal experience with the toob hype was with a presonus blue tube and the studio projects vtb-1...I dont know what I was thinking.

Normally the units with just a 12aty lit up will tend to add a bit of distortion in the circut to make them seem warm.

The fact is that you have to pay good money for a tube preamp worth having...its not to insult those on a budget...but to help make a better purchases.

A good way to know for sure is if the power supply is on the outside of the unit...and a true tube preamp is heavy because of the big transformer and the metal it takes to cool them.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
A good way to know for sure is if the power supply is on the outside of the unit...and a true tube preamp is heavy because of the big transformer and the metal it takes to cool them.
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Well . . . ah . . . a 12AX7 is only 12V 0.15A heater, that's only 1.8W (which the tube will happily dissipate itself), it doesn't take a very big power transformer to manage that . . . now, if we lump on a bunch of other taps for 300V and 48V, etc., then the transformer will get somewhat bigger, but for a preamp it's not quite like a guitar amp . . .
 
Look at it this way, though - isn't the point of a good preamp to capture a sound with as much clarity and transient response as possible? (SNIP) I feel like if you want to fuck up a sound there are plenty of software options for that - amp sims, tape sims, compression plugins, you name it - and for a guy (like me) just beginning to build a collection of pres, the top priority should be getting ones as transparent as possible.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. Get "good" first - Work on "colorful and creative" once you have "good."

Anyone can take a "pure" recording and make it sound messed up. But you can't take a "messed" recording and make it sound "pure."

The "keystone" units for pretty much anyone should be as transparent as possible IMO/E.
 
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