fraserhutch
Flypaper for freaks
Your loss, no skin off my back.
Rodger Hartlett said:
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tdukex
Man of the Muse
Minion said:
Actually, it uses the INA163...unless they have switched it in the last couple of years.
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Big Kenny
New member
I got one, I love it! I don't let many opinions weigh in too heavy, but I do appreciate expertise when I hear it.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Rodger Hartlett said:
fraserhutch got it right, your loss. I agree to a certain extent that BigRay pushed the DAV gear so hard it turned a few people off. I emailed him on that topic and suggested he back off a bit, but he didn't agree with me, and just felt he was getting the word out on some great audio gear. But for you to reject equipment just because of one guy's enthusiasm is silly.
You've not used or heard any DAV gear and yet you are bashing it, saying it has "cheap parts". If anything is suspect, it's your opinion on the matter of DAV gear.
I own a DAV BG-1 preamp and a BG-4 compressor/limiter, both excellent products that sound great. And I can say that from personal experience, not by simply regurgitating posts written by strangers on a message board. Again, I have no connection to DAV other than being a customer.
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MCI2424
New member
chessrock said:
Cost totally depends on how the product is manufactured and has nothing whatsoever to do with how the design was done.
Hand made anything is expensive. Mass made anything is much cheaper.
I have a product now that our company is introducing that we mads 20 beta units (pre-production). The unit will be sold for $149.00 each.
Production is tooling up now.
20 beat units (hand made) break down to:
Case = $200each Production = $10.00 each
Cable = $60 each $8.00 each
PC board (populated)= $120 each $15.00 each
Labels = $2.00 each $.012 each
That is most of the parts for this product. Most $$$ is in labor (machining, hand assy, custom tooling etc.)
So, we go from $292.00 each to ~$33.012 each in volume.
We have not even discussed the design at all. Volume is everything in the pricing wars and hand made anything costs like hell.
Now to your point, design (to us) IS everything. If the thing sucks, no amount of money can save it.
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chessrock
Banned
I'll agree that Big Ray kind of soured me on the idea of DAV.
That said, again, I have no doubt the DAV sounds great. The fact that it uses the Burr-brown chip is not a knock against it. In fact, when implemented well, the ina163 can sound stunning ... so no one is knocking it for cheap components.
It's just that I find it hard to justify the price tag when one considers the components and layout. Just to give an example, the Presonus MP20 retails at least a few hundred bucks less, and it is transformer balanced, Class A. Again, I'm not saying anything about the sound quality, but based on the components cost, I'm guessing the Presonus would cost substantially more to produce on a per-unit basis, excluding any economies of scale -- yet it sells for considerably less.
And if you were to compare it to a Sytek, forget it. It's not even a comparison. Sytek is quite simply a better design using better components with a more thoughtful layout and similarly robust power supply, and it happens to run about 1/2 the cost of the DAV (DAV has a 4-channel version that I believe runs $1,400 whereas Sytek generally runs in the $700 range). And if you've compared the two, and you really hear some sort of difference, then I'm sorry but you're just splitting hairs.
The Rane unit, I will concede doesn't have near as robust of a power supply ... but most other factors being similar, it would represent a much higher-value option with very similar sound qualities and technical specs for at least a 100 bucks less per channel.
But if you like the DAV, and it does the job and it's worth it for you, then cool ... I really think that's great.
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That said, again, I have no doubt the DAV sounds great. The fact that it uses the Burr-brown chip is not a knock against it. In fact, when implemented well, the ina163 can sound stunning ... so no one is knocking it for cheap components.
It's just that I find it hard to justify the price tag when one considers the components and layout. Just to give an example, the Presonus MP20 retails at least a few hundred bucks less, and it is transformer balanced, Class A. Again, I'm not saying anything about the sound quality, but based on the components cost, I'm guessing the Presonus would cost substantially more to produce on a per-unit basis, excluding any economies of scale -- yet it sells for considerably less.
And if you were to compare it to a Sytek, forget it. It's not even a comparison. Sytek is quite simply a better design using better components with a more thoughtful layout and similarly robust power supply, and it happens to run about 1/2 the cost of the DAV (DAV has a 4-channel version that I believe runs $1,400 whereas Sytek generally runs in the $700 range). And if you've compared the two, and you really hear some sort of difference, then I'm sorry but you're just splitting hairs.
The Rane unit, I will concede doesn't have near as robust of a power supply ... but most other factors being similar, it would represent a much higher-value option with very similar sound qualities and technical specs for at least a 100 bucks less per channel.
But if you like the DAV, and it does the job and it's worth it for you, then cool ... I really think that's great.
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SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
But again, you are getting into sort of an intellectual game. "Similar sound qualities", "technical specs", price differentials, and more along those lines.
What I'm saying is that unless and until you put the Presonus MP20, Sytek, BG-1, and MS-1B in the same room and compare them directly, you or anyone else cannot make the judgments you are making in your posts. You really don't *know* if the MS-1B has a similar sound quality--you are estimating, guesstimating, whatever you want to call it. It's the difference between fact and fiction. Fiction being something you make up with your imagination and fact being something you quantify by real world experience.
For example, have you personally A/B'ed the Sytek and the DAV four channel unit? (I'm just busting your balls here a little) If you haven't, you made a conclusion based on an informed guess, but that's not the same as actually having directly compared the two units. The earth looks flat until you go into space and see that it's round. There is always the possibility of surprises and unexpected results. That's what's wrong with looking at specs and chips and then drawing conclusions based on that alone.
I once spent nearly two thousand dollars on a preamp, the Grace 201. I later heard the BG-1 and felt it was better. In with the DAV and out with the Grace. But my conclusion was based on real world experience: listening. I didn't look at the specs or puzzle over how could the DAV sound better to me when it cost less and didn't have gold plated this or that. I simply listened.
If you can come up with a pre that sounds better than the DAV I'd have no trouble admitting that, and I'd probably buy it! But let's discuss facts, meaning first person experience with the gear under discussion.
What I'm saying is that unless and until you put the Presonus MP20, Sytek, BG-1, and MS-1B in the same room and compare them directly, you or anyone else cannot make the judgments you are making in your posts. You really don't *know* if the MS-1B has a similar sound quality--you are estimating, guesstimating, whatever you want to call it. It's the difference between fact and fiction. Fiction being something you make up with your imagination and fact being something you quantify by real world experience.
For example, have you personally A/B'ed the Sytek and the DAV four channel unit? (I'm just busting your balls here a little) If you haven't, you made a conclusion based on an informed guess, but that's not the same as actually having directly compared the two units. The earth looks flat until you go into space and see that it's round. There is always the possibility of surprises and unexpected results. That's what's wrong with looking at specs and chips and then drawing conclusions based on that alone.
I once spent nearly two thousand dollars on a preamp, the Grace 201. I later heard the BG-1 and felt it was better. In with the DAV and out with the Grace. But my conclusion was based on real world experience: listening. I didn't look at the specs or puzzle over how could the DAV sound better to me when it cost less and didn't have gold plated this or that. I simply listened.
If you can come up with a pre that sounds better than the DAV I'd have no trouble admitting that, and I'd probably buy it! But let's discuss facts, meaning first person experience with the gear under discussion.
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chessrock
Banned
Well, considering that sound is so subjective anyway ... suppose you had listened to an Audio Buddy and decided you liked that better (?) Cool. Fine. Knock yourself out. But I'm still going to be skeptical if someone tries to sell me the Audio Buddy for twice as much as a John Hardy. Even if it does sound better. I know the Jensen transformers in the Hardy alone cost more than the entire Audio Buddy unit ... so economically speaking, I still have a hard time justifying that cost on something that's largely a subjective judgement call in the first place.
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SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
I've heard an Audio Buddy. We aren't talking about Audio Buddy's, thank goodness.
But here's what I find interesting about what you just said:
"I still have a hard time justifying that cost on something that's largely a subjective judgement call in the first place".
What if it is *your* subjective call? Don't you buy gear based on what you, Mr. Chessrock, find suits your ears? Are you saying that you buy gear based on your eyes, not your ears? i.e. reading specs. If an Audio Buddy sounded better than a Hardy (a ridiculous example taken to the extreme if I may say so) why wouldn't you nevertheless get the Audio Buddy?
But here's what I find interesting about what you just said:
"I still have a hard time justifying that cost on something that's largely a subjective judgement call in the first place".
What if it is *your* subjective call? Don't you buy gear based on what you, Mr. Chessrock, find suits your ears? Are you saying that you buy gear based on your eyes, not your ears? i.e. reading specs. If an Audio Buddy sounded better than a Hardy (a ridiculous example taken to the extreme if I may say so) why wouldn't you nevertheless get the Audio Buddy?
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chessrock
Banned
I totally get where you're coming from, Sonic.
I just have a hard time personally justifying the cost on something that I know is much less expensive to produce, so I'm going to complain about it.
CD's are much less expensive to produce than LP's were ... yet they cost more than LPs did.
But life goes on. I'm not saying it's the end of the world or anything, but ultimately it is what sounds best to you, and I highly encourage anyone and everyone to ultimately use what gets them the sound they want, because that is, after all, what matters in the end.
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I just have a hard time personally justifying the cost on something that I know is much less expensive to produce, so I'm going to complain about it.
CD's are much less expensive to produce than LP's were ... yet they cost more than LPs did.But life goes on. I'm not saying it's the end of the world or anything, but ultimately it is what sounds best to you, and I highly encourage anyone and everyone to ultimately use what gets them the sound they want, because that is, after all, what matters in the end.
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Rodger Hartlett
New member
that's excactly how i feel about it.
it may be a good sounding preamp but the re-sale value will drop substantially because there are no quality parts or components to justify the price.
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Big Kenny
New member
actually the bg1 is reselling at or $25 below retail. It is holding its' value better than any other equipment i own.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
Rodger Hartlett said:
The purchase of equipment should be based on need, and resale value is one of the least important factors. "Resale value" is another chimera that I think gets in the way of clear thinking. In fact, I don't even think it should be a consideration at all when buying gear.
Further, is this statement: "re-sale value will drop substantially because there are no quality parts or components to justify the price" based on any kind of empirical fact gathering or hard information? It's not, just so you know. Resale value is determined by practically every other factor beside that of the parts used during construction.
Resale value is primarily determined by demand, combined with the scarcity of the product. If it's in demand and there aren't very many, then resale will be high. If it's not in demand and there are many to choose from, then resale will be low.
It's also very difficult to determine ahead of time which equipment will hold it's value and which won't. It also happens quite often that equipment will drop in value for a while, then gain, then drop, then gain. It varies. If you look at selling prices on eBay you can see that within a single month the price on any single piece of gear can fluctuate by as much as 50%.
As far as the BG-1, of the few I've seen sold used, the resale has been quite close to the original price.
dgatwood
is out. Leave a message.
SonicAlbert said:
You forgot what is quite possibly the most important factor in supply/demand theory: substitution. If another manufacturer can make substantially the same quality product at a tenth the cost (because the components are all inexpensive and the current manufacturer is just price gouging), they will eventually do so.
Once this happens, people will start drawing favorable comparisons between those cheaper products and the more expensive products, causing the value (resale or otherwise) of the expensive products to plummet.
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sdelsolray
Active member
Rodger Hartlett said:
Although you didn't mention it, I would assume you have not actually popped the hood on a DAV BG-1 preamp to determine, based on your actual inspection, that there are no quality parts or components in the unit.
I am also assuming that you, like Chessrock, haven't used or heard the unit.
Let me know if I'm wrong on either count.
C
chessrock
Banned
sdelsolray said:
That's not the point that we're discussing. If all you care about is the sound, and you like that sound, then there's really no point, on your end, in continuing this discussion. It sounds good ... you like it ... congratulations.
We're talking about what the unit consists of and the cost of manufacturing, etc. Pretty boring stuff to some people, so if you don't find this discussion interesting or valuable, then you're welcome to jump out of it at any time.
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S
sdelsolray
Active member
chessrock said:That's not the point that we're discussing. If all you care about is the sound, and you like that sound, then there's really no point, on your end, in continuing this discussion. It sounds good ... you like it ... congratulations.
We're talking about what the unit consists of and the cost of manufacturing, etc. Pretty boring stuff to some people, so if you don't find this discussion interesting or valuable, then you're welcome to jump out of it at any time.
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So, Chessy, do you know what components are in the DAV BG-1, other than the op amp? Seems like you would need to know that to have your little discussion. Particularly since you've never used or touched a unit yourself.
Thank you for informing me of what you are talking about. I'm just trying to confirm whether Harlett (and now you) have any personal knowledge about the DAV BG-1, other than the op amp used and the published specs. Apparently not, which allows me to give your viewpoints on this discussion no weight at all.
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fraserhutch
Flypaper for freaks
Really, what does your comment have to do with anything? What does it add other that to thinly allude Mick is price gounging? If you think Mick is price gouging don't buy a Dav.
I would hope that it is simple common sense that if you find a unit that that sounds as to you as more expensive one, that you would go for the cheaper one.
These units are hand made. I would hope and expect that a substantial part of the cost of the unit was labour and R&D (in so much as he should make a little money for designing the unit).
I would hope that it is simple common sense that if you find a unit that that sounds as to you as more expensive one, that you would go for the cheaper one.
These units are hand made. I would hope and expect that a substantial part of the cost of the unit was labour and R&D (in so much as he should make a little money for designing the unit).
dgatwood said:
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chessrock
Banned
sdelsolray said:
Well, in order to actually open one up and get a good view of it's innards, one would suppose I would have to actually own one.
... which, frankly, I have zero interest in. I know just enough about it to conclude that it isn't something I would ever care to purchase.
If I somehow found out it was point-to-point wired and employed giant film caps the size of coke cans, everything socketed, gold-plated, and with fine Jensen and Lundhal transformers ; no surface-mount components ... I might think otherwise. But somehow, I have serious doubts about that. In it's current state, it sounds like there wouldn't be much difference between it and the DIY jobs that some of the homerec'ers are talking about in this thread.
You seem to think that all of this intimate knowlege is very important, so I am assuming you to be an expert on this unit in question (?) ... and I look forward to your detailed and thorough breakdown of it's components and design theory so that you can set me straight once and for all, no?
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Big Kenny
New member
Geez, me thinks thou dost protest too much!