Dark Side of the Roger Waters

Smithers XKR said:
Its brilliant at times but self indulgent maudling stuff at other times
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It has always been a puzzlement to me why the term "self-indulgent" is always used as a pejorative and a criticism of a musician.
What is an artist's music supposed to be ? If their self, being expressed, is fundamental to art, then self-indulgence is a logical necessity. And here's a reality ~ lots of self-indulgence from artists isn't picked up by the consumer of the art as being so and even when it is, it hasn't stopped zillions of sales {literally putting one's money to back their judgement !} or admiration of the work.
Smithers XKR said:
Gilmour was Waters session player. As was Rick
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The funny thing about that ~ categorizing someone as a session player is a way of almost demeaning them and their contribution. Yet there are an uncountable number of songs over decades that quite simply would not be the same song had it not been for the playing and innovations of the session players.
 
Smithers XKR said:
Waters had two brilliant musicians to create his art.
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Roger makes a mistake that many people do when talking about artists that are thought of as being integral to a finished work ~ he refuses to see that record, tape, CD or whatever, finished article, as something that needed a team of people to create. That could be seen as an over-inflated sense of his own importance.
 
grimtraveller said:
It has always been a puzzlement to me why the term "self-indulgent" is always used as a pejorative and a criticism of a musician.
What is an artist's music supposed to be ? If their self, being expressed, is fundamental to art, then self-indulgence is a logical necessity. And here's a reality ~ lots of self-indulgence from artists isn't picked up by the consumer of the art as being so and even when it is, it hasn't stopped zillions of sales {literally putting one's money to back their judgement !} or admiration of the work.

The funny thing about that ~ categorizing someone as a session player is a way of almost demeaning them and their contribution. Yet there are an uncountable number of songs over decades that quite simply would not be the same song had it not been for the playing and innovations of the session players.
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Err you make good points. I think I meant self indulgant meant more about me me me! rather than expressing the feeling through the music. Look at me! Look at me!! Me me me! Rather than try to make a positive statement about life and people.
Waters used the kind nature of Gilmour and Wright for his selfish means. I never catogorised them, please do not twist my meaning, thanks
 
Smithers XKR said:
Gilmour was Waters session player. As was Rick... Waters had two brilliant musicians to create his art.
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Waters ended up using Eric Clapton for Pro's and Con's of Hitchhiking. You could say that really good works require really good session players. I'm not swayed by Water's argument that he alone "wrote" in the sense that as a band, it is often a collaborative effort.

I'm reminded of a story a singer songwriter told me who roomed with another. His roommate had an idea for a song but was stuck on the hook of it and as such, it really wasn't going anywhere. He suggested an example of how he could craft the song as to vary the hook. His roommate suggested that perhaps they could co-write the piece together. His response was "If I don't write another word, it already is a co-write". The song ended up being his roommate's signature piece and is the closer for his shows.

To say that the rest of the band contributed nothing to the crafting of these albums isn't plausible in my opinion. Is Water's brilliant? To be sure. His solo work is solid as well. Doesn't make him my go to expert on geopolitical matters. He is entitled to his opinions but are they any weightier than any other bass player?
 
I love the thread title. You should do an album about the whole situation and make it as depressing as possible.
Maybe a Weird Al type deal. We could do a collab. It will go viral.
 
I used to be a huge Floyd fan since day one. First time I saw them was in Carnegie Hall. I saw them on the first Dark Side tour and the following year.
When I first started listening to them they were Avant Garde. They had a hard time selling tickets. I think Carnegie Hall was three bucks. Then they hit
pay dirt with Dark Side. Then, to me, at least, they lost the spark and just copied dark side over and over getting more depressing as they went along. I gave
up on them after Animals, never got into the Wall or anything after, or anything between Dark Side and Animals. When I do listen to them now it is always pre 72. i guess I became comfortably numb?
 
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Who cares what Waters does to try and stay relevant these days? Aside from a few curious folks the Remix on Dark Side Of The Moon won't benefit from aged ears nor an inflated sense of self that Rogers seems to have - that and the album was mixed in 1973 - 50 years ago - it's done - it was great - it stayed in the charts for 1716 weeks - all Waters will do is muddy his already muddled personality.
 
Papanate said:
Who cares what Waters does to try and stay relevant these days? Aside from a few curious folks the Remix on Dark Side Of The Moon won't benefit from aged ears nor an inflated sense of self that Rogers seems to have - that and the album was mixed in 1973 - 50 years ago - it's done - it was great - it stayed in the charts for 1716 weeks - all Waters will do is muddy his already muddled personality.
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I really cant see what point he ever tried to make. Was it political? Was it social commentary? If you are going to be like that then it must have some sort of purpose. The cynics would say... well he is just writing about his own self indulgance of his father dying in the war and his being bullied at school by evil teachers and his best childhood friend sucumming to drug addiction. If so then that is fine, but it does not have any relevance to people struggling to make ends meet today, does it?
Self indulgence, and self maudling, not genious... if we are really honest?
 
grimtraveller said:
I don't twist people's meanings. I debate them, disagree with them, seek clarification, agree with them, add to them or use them as jumping-off points to make a new point.
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Yes well I think you are more intelligent than I am, or maybe just more persistant xxxx 🥰🥰
 
Smithers XKR said:
Moon was slightly overated I believe
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I agree with you.
Now, I really enjoy Keith Moon's drumming on quite a bit of the Who's stuff. But he walked on the borders of being a one-trick pony and I think he sometimes overplayed.
Still, it made much of the Who's stuff unique.
But Pete Townshend said that he didn't think Keith was a particularly good drummer.
 
grimtraveller said:
I agree with you.
Now, I really enjoy Keith Moon's drumming on quite a bit of the Who's stuff. But he walked on the borders of being a one-trick pony and I think he sometimes overplayed.
Still, it made much of the Who's stuff unique.
But Pete Townshend said that he didn't think Keith was a particularly good drummer.
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Thank you, he played fast and flash but I dont think he was that good
 
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