Damn Headphones!

[Kasey]

i apolagize for my need to express my anger, but mixing on headphones is the most frustrating thing in the world. Dont start yelling at me that I'm doing it, it's all I've got. I'm working on getting some M-Audio BX5's, but at the moment this is all I've got and it sucks. Fast ear fatigue, screwed up levels, screwed up frequency response, screwed up stereo imaging. Damnit. The more i try to mix the worse sounding it gets because of ear fatigue. May I be a lesson to the rest of you who wish to mix on headphones for some reason when you actually have a choice.

 

[sirslurpee]

I feel your pain. I have either headphones, or the P.A. If I could get some studio monitors I would definately use them, but I can't afford it right now

 

[Dr ZEE]

I feel your pain.

huh! funny...that's just what I was thinking of saying ...well, sort of.
however, I have a bit different story. I remember I used to have one of those sony large and heavy "super-cool" sounding headphones and that's what I used to "mix" with ... well, if I can call it "mixing" Basically what I was doing was listening to the mix on those phones, then trying on different home-speakers and boom-boxes... and going through this sort of process ... it sucks.
Then one day my sony phones just died... HAH HAH - I was pissed, but it was a good thing! So then I've got a new headphones (akg k240M) and about the same time I've got Yamaha NS10 (s) ... well, because these were "industry-standard" ...but of course
Now here's what happened then. Over few years I've ended up mixing/recording and pretty much doing everything just with akg k240M headphones. I did try many times mixing with NS10s - and for me personally it was rather very frustrating experience... I never was happy with them. Not trying to say that NS10 (s) were bad ... but I could not use them, mabe also because of the way I used to make my stuff and kind of music I was after... in my case recording/playing/experimenting and mixing was all the same process ... so I just could not deal with the fact that what ever I do sounds like "crap" ... and on monitors like NS10 - everything sounds like crap ...that's why they are actually maybe great for making great mixes, another words: if you manage your mix sounding so-so good on NS10, then your mix is PLATINUM!
So, I 've sold Yamaha(s) ... no damn monitors in my cave since then... and I still do everything with akg240M(s) and still "test-drive" mixes on home stereo speakers and boomboxes .... pretty much where I've started. Now I've got used to it so much ... I have no hopes to try to change it.
**********
Kasey, just one thing. This may or may not happen to you... but there is a chance that it will ... when you get your new monitors - expect another wave of frustration and anger ... rather than smooth ride, well, at least for some time, you know. Getting to know your monitors is the key , I think... and it takes time.
I am actually thinking myself of getting some monitors. I'm not sure why... just because I guess ..heh heh, and maybe give it another try ..just because I'm bored, or just becaus everybody got em'

/respects

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Nothing like practical experience from someone to prove my point....

Whad'ya Mean I Can't Mix With Headphones????

 

[Dj-FSC]

i'm glad that you guys brought this topic up.. cause i was gonna mix with headphones only.. Now i guess that i gotta buy some monitors now..

 

[Robert D]

Bruce,
there's a guy named Bruno outside with a pipe, say's he's from the Headphone manufacturers association and want's to have a "word" with you.


RD

 

[andyhix]

I mix on regular crap home stereo speakers, FWIW. I still think it's better than headphones, though. Check your local thrift store, you can probably find speakers for pennies.

 

[Dr ZEE]

There's nothing worse than having a pair of monitors (or any other production tool in that matter) (one of those which you see over and over on the photos in the MIX magazine and alike publications) in your 'basement' and NOT being able to use them - meaning making the mix of YOUR tracks - read: producing tracks of your musical style/taste/your personal artistic vision while preserving the way and production style you are completely comfortable with.
You can look at them and keep saying to yourself : "I 'VE got them - I'VE got them, I Have the "best" monitors! I'm all set"....
To be able to make (record/produce) music the way YOU WANT it - knowing your tools is much more important than tools themselves. Whether it's home-stereo speakers, headphones, studio-monitors, series of various devices ... - The best monitors are the ones which you know the best and the ones which you work with most pleasure during creative proces, period.
This applies to self-producing musicians, where the reference is the musician's own 'internal vision and demand'. This may not apply to professionals, whose 'vision and demand' is determined by a client.
*********
There are some 'professionals' out there with their own 'vision and demand', they usually do not write much about "how-to", but if they do - you can tell, because in their writings they are focused on the process of using tools but not on the tools.


/respects

 

[seismetr0n]

IMHO, it doesnt matter what you mix on... you just have to learn the e.q. curve of what youre mixing on and figure out how to translate that into a worldly acceptable mix...

some things definately have an easier/quicker learning curve than others...

i'm still getting the hang of my monitors (though i think im pretty close)

anyway

gl

 

[frankieballsss]

I mix on regular crap home stereo speakers, FWIW. I still think it's better than headphones, though. Check your local thrift store, you can probably find speakers for pennies.

Seriously, get crappy computer speakers if you have to. It will guarantee you a much better mix then headphones.

As said before, dont expect "a walk in the park" when you finally get your monitors. It will probably take you some time to learn them.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

If everybody here just owned MoreMe headphones, you'd never be tempted to try and mix on them, and we'd never have these discussions ever again.

 

[EDAN]

Nothing like practical experience from someone to prove my point....

Whad'ya Mean I Can't Mix With Headphones????

I'm going to have to start taking down names, but for now you'll just have to believe me. While reading "Behind The Glass" I recall at least two big wig producers who recommend using headphones, especially if you have a bad sounding room. Heck David Bowies long time producer even uses a Behringer compressor!, Oh and another recommended the TC finalizer for project/home studios, saying it was an amazing piece of gear. I know what you are thinking, .. names, give me names. Well, outside of George Martin and maybe Glen Ballard (Alanis's album was done on those 16 bit black face adats using the onboard A/D converters) I don't really no most by names and don't feel like searching through the book to put the statement to the producer, but it's in there for those who wish to look.

 

[frankieballsss]

I'm going to have to start taking down names, but for now you'll just have to believe me. While reading "Behind The Glass" I recall at least two big wig producers who recommend using headphones, especially if you have a bad sounding room. Heck David Bowies long time producer even uses a Behringer compressor!, Oh and another recommended the TC finalizer for project/home studios, saying it was an amazing piece of gear. I know what you are thinking, .. names, give me names. Well, outside of George Martin and maybe Glen Ballard (Alanis's album was done on those 16 bit black face adats using the onboard A/D converters) I don't really no most by names and don't feel like searching through the book to put the statement to the producer, but it's in there for those who wish to look.

You probably misread the headphones advice. Im sure that it says that if you have a bad sounding room you can BENEFIT FROM ALSO CHECKING YOUR MIX IN HEADPHONES. But I've never heard an engineer say that you are better off mixing on your headphones over mixing through speakers in a bad room, thats just ridiculous.

Don't make outlandish statements like this and then say "well I just don't feel like finding the source", thats just a cop out.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

While reading "Behind The Glass" I recall at least two big wig producers who recommend using headphones, especially if you have a bad sounding room.

For CHECKING, yes.... INSTEAD OF monitors, not a chance..... no engineer worth their salt would ever say that....

 

[LemonTree]

read behind the glass recently. For checking balance, image, etc...YES! For actual mixing, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no , no.......... NO!

 

[jeffree]

when you get your new monitors - expect another wave of frustration and anger ... rather than smooth ride, well, at least for some time, you know. Getting to know your monitors is the key , I think... and it takes time.\

I tried the headphone thing, too, with similarly bad results. If I had a nickel for every time I ran a phone mix to another stereo system and eneded up saying "what the ****?!"...

I finally broke down and bought some monitors (BX5s). I spent many hours, spread over days and weeks, getting to know them before trusting them enough for a mix. Even then, I had some nagging trouble hearing/mixing the low end for some months--a 5" cone can only do so much. Once I eventually added a sub and then re-learned the system, mixing's been all smiles at this end. I've got a heckuva lot yet to learn about mixing, but getting a decent monitoring system in place was a big stride forward.

J.

 

[Dr ZEE]

For checking balance, image, etc...YES! For actual mixing, no....NO!

Checking balance, image, etc... is part of process of actual mixing.
One can mix with headphones while check something with speaker-monitors
There are other aspects and specifics of individual approach in the whole production process (sound experimentation, recording, stereo-imaging, mixing - all can be as one process). Also the question are: mixing what? (what kind of musical material?) and what for? (to be performed/listened where? on what sound-reproduction system(s)? and what for? (during what kind of activity, for example)).
One can produce material specifically (or primarily) to be listened on headphones.
Or if you take, for example, production of club/dance traks for club-soundsystems, or dub tracks for dub-soundsystem etc... then the process of mixing will have its own specifics and specific demands so you will need specific set of "tools" and use specific techniques, where your nice "industry-standard" studio-monitors will be nothing more than just another (maybe useful!) pair of speakers which may or may not be able to "give you information you need" in your studio. To get information you need - you actually have to play/listen/try your tracks in clubs (on club's sound-systems) and build-up your experience by comparing what you hear at your studio with what you hear in the club. In such situation: what ever works best for you in the studio IS your tool of choice - and , Yes, it can be a specific pair of headphones, studio-monitors or specifically designed set of what ever speakers, and YES, a pair of nice "industry-standard" studio-monitors in such situation CAN be totally unacceptable for the job and thus useless.
It's just simply not that simple as ABC.
Well, it may seem to be simple if you view the mixing process from your rather "narrow window", then you MAY see mixing as hammering a nail but not as building the wall. When building the wall - screws can (or even have to) be used. So what do you do with the "hammer" then?

/respects

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Checking balance, image, etc... is part of process of actual mixing.
One can mix with headphones while check something with speaker-monitors
There are other aspects and specifics of individual approach in the whole production process (sound experimentation, recording, stereo-imaging, mixing - all can be as one process). Also the question are: mixing what? (what kind of musical material?) and what for? (to be performed/listened where? on what sound-reproduction system(s)? and what for? (during what kind of activity, for example)).
One can produce material specifically (or primarily) to be listened on headphones.
Or if you take, for example, production of club/dance traks for club-soundsystems, or dub tracks for dub-soundsystem etc... then the process of mixing will have its own specifics and specific demands so you will need specific set of "tools" and use specific techniques, where your nice "industry-standard" studio-monitors will be nothing more than just another (maybe useful!) pair of speakers which may or may not be able to "give you information you need" in your studio. To get information you need - you actually have to play/listen/try your tracks in clubs (on club's sound-systems) and build-up your experience by comparing what you hear at your studio with what you hear in the club. In such situation: what ever works best for you in the studio IS your tool of choice - and , Yes, it can be a specific pair of headphones, studio-monitors or specifically designed set of what ever speakers, and YES, a pair of nice "industry-standard" studio-monitors in such situation CAN be totally unacceptable for the job and thus useless.
It's just simply not that simple as ABC.
Well, it may seem to be simple if you view the mixing process from your rather "narrow window", then you MAY see mixing as hammering a nail but not as building the wall. When building the wall - screws can (or even have to) be used. So what do you do with the "hammer" then?

/respects

That was quite the load of double-talk........... in the end, monitor systems are tools, but there are the right tools for the job, and the wrong ones. Much like trying to hammer a nail with a screwdriver....... it CAN be done, but why would you?

 

[frankieballsss]

Checking balance, image, etc... is part of process of actual mixing.
One can mix with headphones while check something with speaker-monitors
There are other aspects and specifics of individual approach in the whole production process (sound experimentation, recording, stereo-imaging, mixing - all can be as one process). Also the question are: mixing what? (what kind of musical material?) and what for? (to be performed/listened where? on what sound-reproduction system(s)? and what for? (during what kind of activity, for example)).
One can produce material specifically (or primarily) to be listened on headphones.
Or if you take, for example, production of club/dance traks for club-soundsystems, or dub tracks for dub-soundsystem etc... then the process of mixing will have its own specifics and specific demands so you will need specific set of "tools" and use specific techniques, where your nice "industry-standard" studio-monitors will be nothing more than just another (maybe useful!) pair of speakers which may or may not be able to "give you information you need" in your studio. To get information you need - you actually have to play/listen/try your tracks in clubs (on club's sound-systems) and build-up your experience by comparing what you hear at your studio with what you hear in the club. In such situation: what ever works best for you in the studio IS your tool of choice - and , Yes, it can be a specific pair of headphones, studio-monitors or specifically designed set of what ever speakers, and YES, a pair of nice "industry-standard" studio-monitors in such situation CAN be totally unacceptable for the job and thus useless.
It's just simply not that simple as ABC.
Well, it may seem to be simple if you view the mixing process from your rather "narrow window", then you MAY see mixing as hammering a nail but not as building the wall. When building the wall - screws can (or even have to) be used. So what do you do with the "hammer" then?

/respects

There are so many contradictions in here I dont know where to begin, but one thing that stood out is your comment on making club mixes. You couldn't be more inaccurate on your comment about having to listen to "club" speakers to make a "club ready" track. If anything, referencing actual instrumental tracks of what you want to sound like through YOUR speakers is the proper procedure. I know a couple of well respected New York producers that mix club tracks strictly by referencing other tracks through there own monitors.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Doubletalk, contradictions, I know "well respected" producers, strictly this, strictly that... ...what else?
You can do something. Or you can search for what "well respected" do (or what they say they do ).
Either way you end up DOING SOMETHING - read: "Just doing". When you just DO, then you care less about what "well respected do". Why? Because then you know, that what ever the "respected ones" do is irrelevent to what you actually (practically, not imaginarily) have to deal with in your specific situation.

Mix with headphones. Then play your mix through stereo-speakers/monitors. Say: "What the ***?!". Get mad. Stop using headphones.
Mix with stereo-speakers/monitors. Then listen to your mix with headphones. Say: "What the f****!?". Get mad. (Just, please, don't tell me that this never happens .. )
Get a second job. Buy "industry-standard" or most popular studio monitors. Play anything through them. Say: "What the f***!?!" Get mad, confused and pissed. (You can tell me that this is not possible. All I can reply then: "Not everyone is perfect" )
Mix with what ever. Take your mix to the club. Ask DJ to play it. Say "What the ***K!!!?" Get mad.
Get really pissed.
Write an article. Just don't start shooting people randomly.
Deal with it.

I'm not making up anything here. That's the way things are.... well, of course, based on my miserable immature experience

blah blah


/respects